Wilbur Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 I really hope the owners clean house. This team needs a new outlook/philosophy/whatever you want to call it. There are some good things going on this organization, but not enough. Fire Shapiro and let the new person set a new tone and keep the people worth keeping and move on from those that aren't. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 13 minutes ago, Wilbur said: I really hope the owners clean house. This team needs a new outlook/philosophy/whatever you want to call it. There are some good things going on this organization, but not enough. Fire Shapiro and let the new person set a new tone and keep the people worth keeping and move on from those that aren't. Build the offense around Vladdy and Bo. Every other regular bat can go for all I care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/mlb/blue-jays-players-fume-at-front-office-in-aftermath-of-embarrassing-playoff-exit/ar-AA1hKpTd?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=a662c546854040bba8031f20c3444ae9&ei=109 " In his days as Maple Leafs general manager, it used to drive Brian Burke crazy when fans and media would pile on the front office and coach when things would go awry. What about the players, Burke would grouse? Well, sometimes one shoe fits all and, in the case of the Blue Jays, the savagery aimed at general manager Ross Atkins and team president Mark Shapiro is as pointed as it has ever been. That narrative goes with the territory, of course, and most of it is justified. But when the inmates start driving the commentary, the criticisms start to bend towards crisis. That’s precisely what happened at Target Field in the aftermath of one of the worst playoff exits by a Toronto professional sports team — which is saying something. Multiple players made their displeasure clear in the post-game wake that, in baseball, serves as locker cleanup. The disappointment was punctuated by thinly veiled criticism of a front office that has become increasingly difficult to embrace. “We got beat up two years in a row in the playoffs,” Blue Jays shortstop Bo Bichette told reporters in Minneapolis, choosing his words carefully but clearly intent on making a point. “I think there is a lot or reflection needed … from players, but from the organization from the top down. Everybody needs to reflect to see what we can do better.” I think we know where Bichette was going here with “everybody.” There was plenty more of that discourse to go around. Whit Merrifield said he “hated” the call to end a brilliant outing by starter Jose Berrios in the fourth inning, only to see it blow up in the Jays face as his bizarrely selected successor, Yusei Kikuchi, allowed a pair of runs. Vlad Guerrero Jr. said he was surprised, though he was in no position to be casting stones. Manager John Schneider was forced to represent the organization in a post-game press conference and defend the analytical call, something he did only half-heartedly. And on it went. Heat-of-the-moment stuff, to be sure, and let it be known that to varying degrees each of those players were part of a team that scored just one run in 18 innings of playoff baseball. Also, it has to be acknowledged that analytics aren’t a flat-out curse. Information is an important tool — how it is employed is the issue. So as we abruptly begin an off-season that no doubt will be punctuated with more promises of big things ahead, let’s reflect on the genius strategy concocted after last year’s version of the two-game playoff sweep. In his wisdom, Atkins decided sacrificing offence to bolster the pitching staff would be the golden strategy to live up to the team’s hollow ‘Next Level’ hashtag. How did that doomed bit of genius work out? It failed spectacularly for a team that never had a true cleanup hitter, could not perform adequately with runners in scoring position and was embarrassingly inept in the post-season. By any measure — even getting into the playoffs with 89 wins — these have not been a banner 12 months for Atkins, whose leadership has been questioned inside his own dugout and beyond. His handling of the Anthony Bass affair was both bizarre, elusive and did not go unnoticed by his team. The resulting distraction created distrust from more than one corner in the clubhouse — as more than one individual shared with us. Atkins’ evasiveness in being up front about what was going on with Alek Manoah was symptomatic of the paranoia that marks the leadership style of this front office. The inability to deliver even the most routine of updates is mind-boggling. The Jays front office is getting a reputation, one cemented on a large stage on Wednesday night, and you can bet the baseball world took notice. How it will be seen by future free agents remains to be seen and money ultimately talks, even if it often requires a premium to get players to come north of the border. The Jays are far from the only front office to be enslaved be analytics, but there won’t be a starting pitcher in the major leagues not feeling for Berrios today. Zooming out, we’re now left to ponder what Edward Rogers — the deep-pocketed enabler of all things Blue Jays through his role as Rogers CEO — does about it. Does Rogers (the man, not the company) feel duped at buying into the front-office pitch and shelling out a franchise-record payroll? Is he at all worried about how a surely jilted fan base will react to the latest on-field meekness? With the biggest phase of stadium renovations able to start any day now, the sustained pitch to sell tickets at in inflated price will become nauseating. And this from a fan base that contributed to attendance topping three million this season for the first time since 2017. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but … The anger is fresh but the reality is clear: A flawed roster put together by a flawed front office contributed to another feeble first-round exit. The players know it. The fans know it. And now what is the front office — and perhaps the man who signs the cheques to enable it — going to do about it? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 After basically becoming the Maple Leafs, nothing is off the table for Blue Jays https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/after-basically-becoming-the-maple-leafs-nothing-is-off-the-table-for-blue-jays/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce000 Posted October 5, 2023 Author Share Posted October 5, 2023 Kiermaier and Hicks I’d welcome back to the team, the rest of them can go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Marchand Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 (edited) Honestly, as dumb as the decision to remove Berrios was, it's a symptom of a larger problem with the organization's analytical approach - it's largely inflexible and inconsiderate of situational context, and it isn't just limited to pitching. When you watch multiple hitters on this team foul back or not even offer at pitches right down the middle of the plate only to chase junk several inches off the plate in the same at-bat, it makes you wonder exactly what approach the front office and coaching staff is telling the hitters to take. I've mentioned before that they've openly prioritized being patient, staying back, striking out less and hitting to the opposite field more, but it seems to have completely neutered their ability to attack hittable pitches. It seems like they're not sure what they should be swinging at most of the time. The Jays haven't had problems getting on base, but the lack of power hitting has been the biggest reason they can't consistently produce runs. For such an analytics-driven front office, it's kind of surprising that they haven't realized that the most efficient run-producing offenses in baseball prioritize hard contact and hitting for power, even if that comes with more strikeouts. I've seen Jays teams over the years that have been too aggressive and overreliant on home runs for offense, but the current small-ball, contact-based approach clearly isn't working, either. Firing Schneider alone wouldn't fix the issues I described above, the reality is that the entire organization's approach to offense and analytics has to change. Edited October 6, 2023 by Brad Marchand 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 Seeing Ross Atkins trending on twitter but he hasn't been fired yet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 I'm really worried that making the playoffs saved the jobs of the idiots in the front office still. Not sure what ownership is waiting for. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlockerHigh Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 On 10/5/2023 at 9:18 PM, Brad Marchand said: Honestly, as dumb as the decision to remove Berrios was, it's a symptom of a larger problem with the organization's analytical approach - it's largely inflexible and inconsiderate of situational context, and it isn't just limited to pitching. When you watch multiple hitters on this team foul back or not even offer at pitches right down the middle of the plate only to chase junk several inches off the plate in the same at-bat, it makes you wonder exactly what approach the front office and coaching staff is telling the hitters to take. I've mentioned before that they've openly prioritized being patient, staying back, striking out less and hitting to the opposite field more, but it seems to have completely neutered their ability to attack hittable pitches. It seems like they're not sure what they should be swinging at most of the time. The Jays haven't had problems getting on base, but the lack of power hitting has been the biggest reason they can't consistently produce runs. For such an analytics-driven front office, it's kind of surprising that they haven't realized that the most efficient run-producing offenses in baseball prioritize hard contact and hitting for power, even if that comes with more strikeouts. I've seen Jays teams over the years that have been too aggressive and overreliant on home runs for offense, but the current small-ball, contact-based approach clearly isn't working, either. Firing Schneider alone wouldn't fix the issues I described above, the reality is that the entire organization's approach to offense and analytics has to change. They literally made the decision before the game, how long before who knows but how do you decide before a game? it was one of the most absurd decisons I have ever seen in pro sports. I put it up there with not giving the ball to Marshall Lynch on the goal line in the Super Bowl. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlockerHigh Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 4 hours ago, Pears said: Seeing Ross Atkins trending on twitter but he hasn't been fired yet Apparently he and Shapiro doing their end of season presser tomorrow morning on SN 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 5 hours ago, BlockerHigh said: Apparently he and Shapiro doing their end of season presser tomorrow morning on SN Hopefully one or both will be fired or announcing their resignation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runningback33 Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) . Edited October 7, 2023 by runningback33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runningback33 Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) https://www.tsn.ca/mlb/ross-atkins-john-schneider-to-return-as-blue-jays-manager-1.2017817 TORONTO — John Schneider will return to manage the Toronto Blue Jays next season, even though general manager Ross Atkins revealed it was Schneider's decision to remove starter Jose Berrios in the game that abruptly ended the underachieving team's season last Wednesday. Atkins held his post-mortem press conference on Saturday morning of Thanksgiving Weekend, three days after the Blue Jays suffered a 2-0 loss to the Minnesota Twins to be swept two games to none in the American League Wild-Card series. After the Blue Jays' seventh straight post-season loss, there was heavy criticism heaped upon Schneider for removing the righty Berrious after 47 pitches and three shutout innings in favour of lefty Yusei Kikuchi. There was speculation the front office and its analytics department drew up the game plan to pressure the Twins into employing some right-handed batters earlier than they would have liked to. This would have enabled the Blue Jays to use their effective right-handed relievers Yimi Garcia, Erik Swanson, Jordan Hicks and Jordan Romano, in mid-to-late inning situations. Atkins denied any influence from the front office on Schneider and his coaching staff's decision. "I found out about it when you did," Atkins said. "When [Kikuchi] was getting warm in the first inning, it was very clear that we had a strategy to potentially deploy. John Schneider made the decision to deploy that. "There was not an influence from the office that factored into that, other than maybe it was an organizational strategy communicated to players. When I say organization, I'm including players, many players over the course of the days prior to that strategy." Atkins disclosed Schneider and his coaches, along with advanced scout Theron Simpson, are the individuals involved in a pre-game assembly to devise the game plan. The Toronto general manager also remarked the early-game pitching decision, which resulted in a two-run fourth inning for the home side, was not the problem in the season-ending game. A lack of timely hitting prevented the Blue Jays from advancing. Atkins said, "If we started the game and someone said, 'You're only going to allow two runs today,' I would have said, 'That's a decent outcome. We have a very good chance to win.'" Atkins praised the work and decision-making of Schneider, bench coach Don Mattingly, pitching coach Pete Walker as well as assistant pitching coaches Jeff Ware and David Howell. Atkins did not mention hitting coach Guillermo Martinez. The Toronto general manager and Schneider will examine the coaching staff in meetings next week. The Blue Jays, with the first stage of the Rogers Centre renovation completed, topped the three-million mark in attendance for the eighth time in franchise history and the first time since 2017. But Toronto finished the regular season at 89-73, losing four of the final six games of their season-concluding homestand. They disappointed their fan base for the second straight season, swiftly ousted in two consecutive games in the wild-card round. "This is extremely painful for me," Atkins said. "This has been one of the most frustrating times in my career. Walking into that clubhouse yesterday, the smell of stale champagne was not good for me." Looking ahead to next season, Atkins stated his focus will be improving the Blue Jays offence by enhancing the production of the remaining players and adding to the roster through free agency. Atkins also hopes the team's baserunning improves after Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was picked off at second base in Game 2 and Bo Bichette was thrown out at home in the series opener. He also had confidence pitcher Alek Manoah would return to form and rejoin the rotation in 2024 after his abysmal 2023 that saw the former Cy Young contender dropped from the roster in the middle of the season and again for the final six weeks. Atkins intimated the Blue Jays likely will lose veterans Matt Chapman, Kevin Kiermaier and Brandon Belt to free agency. He left the door open to re-signing 36-year-old pitcher Hyun-Jin Ryu. Atkins did not mention Whit Merrifield, Chad Green and Jordan Hicks. . Hicks is a free agent, while the Blue Jays have a club option with Green and a mutual option with Whitfield for another season at $18 million US. The player and team would have to agree to exercise the option mutually. Edited October 7, 2023 by runningback33 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 1 hour ago, runningback33 said: https://www.tsn.ca/mlb/ross-atkins-john-schneider-to-return-as-blue-jays-manager-1.2017817 TORONTO — John Schneider will return to manage the Toronto Blue Jays next season, even though general manager Ross Atkins revealed it was Schneider's decision to remove starter Jose Berrios in the game that abruptly ended the underachieving team's season last Wednesday. Atkins held his post-mortem press conference on Saturday morning of Thanksgiving Weekend, three days after the Blue Jays suffered a 2-0 loss to the Minnesota Twins to be swept two games to none in the American League Wild-Card series. After the Blue Jays' seventh straight post-season loss, there was heavy criticism heaped upon Schneider for removing the righty Berrious after 47 pitches and three shutout innings in favour of lefty Yusei Kikuchi. There was speculation the front office and its analytics department drew up the game plan to pressure the Twins into employing some right-handed batters earlier than they would have liked to. This would have enabled the Blue Jays to use their effective right-handed relievers Yimi Garcia, Erik Swanson, Jordan Hicks and Jordan Romano, in mid-to-late inning situations. Atkins denied any influence from the front office on Schneider and his coaching staff's decision. "I found out about it when you did," Atkins said. "When [Kikuchi] was getting warm in the first inning, it was very clear that we had a strategy to potentially deploy. John Schneider made the decision to deploy that. "There was not an influence from the office that factored into that, other than maybe it was an organizational strategy communicated to players. When I say organization, I'm including players, many players over the course of the days prior to that strategy." Atkins disclosed Schneider and his coaches, along with advanced scout Theron Simpson, are the individuals involved in a pre-game assembly to devise the game plan. The Toronto general manager also remarked the early-game pitching decision, which resulted in a two-run fourth inning for the home side, was not the problem in the season-ending game. A lack of timely hitting prevented the Blue Jays from advancing. Atkins said, "If we started the game and someone said, 'You're only going to allow two runs today,' I would have said, 'That's a decent outcome. We have a very good chance to win.'" Atkins praised the work and decision-making of Schneider, bench coach Don Mattingly, pitching coach Pete Walker as well as assistant pitching coaches Jeff Ware and David Howell. Atkins did not mention hitting coach Guillermo Martinez. The Toronto general manager and Schneider will examine the coaching staff in meetings next week. The Blue Jays, with the first stage of the Rogers Centre renovation completed, topped the three-million mark in attendance for the eighth time in franchise history and the first time since 2017. But Toronto finished the regular season at 89-73, losing four of the final six games of their season-concluding homestand. They disappointed their fan base for the second straight season, swiftly ousted in two consecutive games in the wild-card round. "This is extremely painful for me," Atkins said. "This has been one of the most frustrating times in my career. Walking into that clubhouse yesterday, the smell of stale champagne was not good for me." Looking ahead to next season, Atkins stated his focus will be improving the Blue Jays offence by enhancing the production of the remaining players and adding to the roster through free agency. Atkins also hopes the team's baserunning improves after Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was picked off at second base in Game 2 and Bo Bichette was thrown out at home in the series opener. He also had confidence pitcher Alek Manoah would return to form and rejoin the rotation in 2024 after his abysmal 2023 that saw the former Cy Young contender dropped from the roster in the middle of the season and again for the final six weeks. Atkins intimated the Blue Jays likely will lose veterans Matt Chapman, Kevin Kiermaier and Brandon Belt to free agency. He left the door open to re-signing 36-year-old pitcher Hyun-Jin Ryu. Atkins did not mention Whit Merrifield, Chad Green and Jordan Hicks. . Hicks is a free agent, while the Blue Jays have a club option with Green and a mutual option with Whitfield for another season at $18 million US. The player and team would have to agree to exercise the option mutually. So unserious, and will continue to be while Rogers lets these incompetent clowns run this team into the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 TBH, I doubt any of the pending free agents will be back next season. Belt, Ryu, KK, Chapman and Hicks will all be coming off the books and I think the Jays might try to use that money to acquire a bat....(Cody Bellinger anyone?) The biggest hole to fill will be a 3rd, as I believe Chapman is going to get paid, even though he didn't really have the offensive season the Jays had hoped for. The only other impact 3B is Justin Turner and JT isn't nearly the defensive player that MC is... I think we'll see both Espinal and Biggio at 3rd next season.....I wouldn't even rule out Vladdy playing there on occasion... KK had a great season, but like Belt, he's getting up there in years. I think it would be a mistake to expect him to replicate this season's performance. Unless he's willing to take a significant cut in pay, I think he's probably gone. Varsho and Springer aren't going anywhere and I believe management will want a reliable power bat in that final outfield position. It will suck losing Hicks, but the Jays will probably decide he's a luxury they can't afford. They'll hope that a full season of Chad Green will make up for his loss. Ohtani would be awesome, but I think it's a pipe dream. Besides, after coming off surgery, he'll likely be mostly a DH next season. He'd be the best DH in baseball, but a very expensive one. Not sure the Jays will go down that road. The rotation is more or less set. Gausman, Bassitt, Berrios and Kikuchi will be the top four and the Jays will probably use Francis, or maybe Manoah (if he's able to bounce back) in the 5th slot. They also might sign a bottom of the rotation FA to a short term deal as well. I think they're counting on Tiedemann to be the guy before long, so they won't want to tie themselves to a big contract for a starter. That being said, there are quite a few starters in the FA market, which should theoretically drive prices down, so I could see a short term offer to a James Paxton, or a Jordan Montgomery..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) After reading the synopsis of the presser I'm in a very glass half empty mood. There are very few bats out there in FA (their biggest need by a country mile) and I get the hunch the Jays are going to be left without a chair when the music stops. It's a gut feeling so take it for what you will; I don't see Bellinger being the type to come North if he can get similar money elsewhere (*cough* Yankees *cough*). I would love Hicks too, but if the Jays can keep Green and Cabrera, it probably won't be that hard to snag another reliever mid-season when the time comes. With Shapiro at the helm, it'll be steady as she goes. Another season with high 80s in wins. Good chance they'll make the playoffs. Get annihilated once there. I have zero faith in the front office's ability to take this team over the top. Edited October 7, 2023 by Wilbur 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubik Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 wow, this Twins Astros game changed in a blink of an eye... they should've left Verlander in for one more inning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnkNuk Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Rubik said: wow, this Twins Astros game changed in a blink of an eye... they should've left Verlander in for one more inning. And they were able to hold on. Speaking of the Astros: I haven't followed baseball in years. I recall hearing about the cheating scandal a few years ago but didn't pay much attention to it. But "Frontline" on PBS did a 90 minute documentary on it in their latest episode - "The Astros Edge". Interesting stuff. So much so I even watched the last half of today's game to see if anyone was pounding on a garbage can. Well worth watching if you can find it or if it pops up again on PBS. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runningback33 Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 Kershaw didn’t even make it out of the 1st inning…Arizona up 6-0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce000 Posted October 8, 2023 Author Share Posted October 8, 2023 Well the Dodgers are getting fisted 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 Rangers v Astros ALCS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubik Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 18 hours ago, Bounce000 said: Well the Dodgers are getting fisted Baltimore getting fisted?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce000 Posted October 9, 2023 Author Share Posted October 9, 2023 Looking like none of the AL east teams are going to win a post season game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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