[Speculation] Canucks maintaining strong interest in free agent Ethan Bear

[Coconuts]

Meh, offer him a one year, league minimum deal if they want. Seems like a good person but I found him underwhelming as a player.

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, Provost said:

Shuffling around 6th guys with 7th guys doesn't do anything one way or another.  We have extra guys on the farm like Irwin who are fine for those limited roles.  Spending money on Bear, even in the $1.5-2.0 million range which is really optimistic, eliminates the chance to find an actual solution

Adding a top four guy moves everyone else down a spot on the pairings including a guy like Juulsen which is the only thing really needed.

Soucy hasn't been a top four guy his career, the team was hopeful he could make that jump.  A 2nd pairing guy plays 20 minutes a game.  His yearly averages over his career are 15-17 minutes which are 3rd pairing minutes.

Hughes-XX
Cole-Hronek
Soucy-Myers
Irwin-Juulsen
Hirose-Friedman

 

Bear (healthy anyway) isn't a #6-7.  He, like Soucy, is a legit bottom pair guy that can fill in your top 4 with injuries a #4-5 (or 4B/5A if you prefer). He also effectively pushes Juulsen out of the starting 6 FYI.

 

Again, yes long term we need a Hughes partner. Top 4 RHD don't grow in trees, aren't readily available and cost sizable cap (that we don't have). Bear is readily available and shouldn't cost much cap (I'd wager between $1-$1.5m prorated cap).

 

You're letting perfection be the enemy of good.

 

Bear will also be legit NHL depth, should a Myers trade materialize at some point (possibly freeing up some of the cap to add said top 4 D we all desire at the TDL).

 

 

[-AJ-]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

I don’t care if we sign bear or not but I find it funny people say he can play on the 3rd pairing with soucy. Which is fine, but if people are complaining about bear last year 1.8mil is overpaid.. can someone explain to me how soucy is a great signing at 3.25x3 if ppl are suggesting he should play with bear on the 3rd pairing?? Bear 1.8 overpaid 3rd pairing soucy great signing 3.25 3rd pairing.. baffling 

 

I'd actually agree that Soucy is overpaid. The catch is that he's perceived to have more potential to hold down a top 4 role than Bear at this point I think. Regardless, I think Vancouver got a few players on smart deals this past summer, and although I like Soucy, $3.25M is too much IMO--at least at his current level.

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Bear (healthy anyway) isn't a #6-7.  He, like Soucy, is a legit bottom pair guy that can fill in your top 4 with injuries a #4-5 (or 4B/5A if you prefer). He also effectively pushes Juulsen out of the starting 6 FYI.

 

Again, yes long term we need a Hughes partner. Top 4 RHD don't grow in trees, aren't readily available and cost sizable cap (that we don't have). Bear is readily available and shouldn't cost much cap (I'd wager between $1-$1.5m prorated cap).

 

You're letting perfection be the enemy of good.

 

Bear will also be legit NHL depth, should a Myers trade materialize at some point (possibly freeing up some of the cap to add said top 4 D we all desire at the TDL).

 

 

 

I would think the idea plan would be to agree to sign Bear once he's healthy, sometime around the TDL or a bit before, and move Myers out even 1/2 retained just to get an asset back. Bear can easily fill in for Myers.

[aGENT]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

I would think the idea plan would be to agree to sign Bear once he's healthy, sometime around the TDL or a bit before, and move Myers out even 1/2 retained just to get an asset back. Bear can easily fill in for Myers.

Exactly.

 

And if you can use some of that freed up cap+ whatever cap we free up from a potential Garland move (+ some assets) to get the top 4 guy we all want, great!  Bear, on a low cost deal still makes loads of sense in that scenario.

 

Hughes, trade

Cole, Hronek

Soucy, Bear

 

Brisebois, Freidman

 

Is a decent, playoff capable D, with solid, complementary pairs.

[Jeremy Hronek]

37 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Again, medium long term we absolutely need a legit top 4 partner for Hughes. Problem being, #2-#3D aren't readily available and cost a lot of cap space. 

 

 

 

Wondering if it would be a smart calculated gamble to sell high on Kuzmenko for this piece (is Kuzmenko a good fit for Tocchet's system?) with the calculated gamble being that guys like Boeser, Hoglander, Beauvillier, Mikheyev, and the now "staying" Conor Garland could step up with more ice-time in Kuzmenko's absence.   

[aGENT]

14 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Wondering if it would be a smart calculated gamble to sell high on Kuzmenko for this piece (is Kuzmenko a good fit for Tocchet's system?) with the calculated gamble being that guys like Boeser, Hoglander, Beauvillier, Mikheyev, and the now "staying" Conor Garland could step up with more ice-time in Kuzmenko's absence.   

 

I wouldn't. You can have some "mostly just skill" guys on even a structured "two way" team. Somebody has to put the puck in the net (scoring being the hardest skill to obtain in hockey). A healthy Mik and Petey are enough two way presence on that line IMO.

 

Garland is staying? 

Edited October 19, 2023 by aGENT

[Jeremy Hronek]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

 

Garland is staying? 

 

No.  Just in my hypothetical scenario if we moved Kuzmenko for that #2A/#3 calibre d-man.  

[Elias Pettersson]

7 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

To that end, Juulsen also plays a Tocchet-style game (defending with your muscles), but he's killing our offense.

 

Allvin and the chipmunks penguins

 

True, but unlike Juuslen, Friedman actually knows how to skate.  PDG also plays a Tocchet syle game.  Unfortunately, he has no clue how to score.  

Edited October 19, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[canuck73_3]

an upgrade on Juulsen or contingency plan for moving Myers, would prefer a 1 year deal 2 years max if cheap enough but 1 year heavily preferred. 

[AK-19]

6 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

I don’t care if we sign bear or not but I find it funny people say he can play on the 3rd pairing with soucy. Which is fine, but if people are complaining about bear last year 1.8mil is overpaid.. can someone explain to me how soucy is a great signing at 3.25x3 if ppl are suggesting he should play with bear on the 3rd pairing?? Bear 1.8 overpaid 3rd pairing soucy great signing 3.25 3rd pairing.. baffling 

 

Bear can't play on special teams, or at least not well.

[wai_lai416]

19 minutes ago, AK-19 said:

 

Bear can't play on special teams, or at least not well.

so a 2nd pairing pk vs a 2nd pairing PP is worth the big gap? soucy is overpaid period he's a glorified 5th defenceman that can anchor the 3rd pairing and play on the PK.. but the coach and management is going to justify the 3.25mil by playing him in a top 4 role and watch us get burn as the season goes on. he's already struggling at times in the preseason and last game.. we can blame injury or new team or whatever.. but if cole is only worth 3mil.. no one can tell me soucy is worth more than cole

[NHL97OneTimer]

13 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

No.  Just in my hypothetical scenario if we moved Kuzmenko for that #2A/#3 calibre d-man.  

Trade Kuzmenko?!!!

[cripplereh]

Why would we be interested???

 

He's hurt can't play.

 

Might be ready by Xmas break, by then we could trade a winger for a better option.

[Jeremy Hronek]

3 hours ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

Trade Kuzmenko?!!!

 

It would be risky for sure but consider the following:

 

1) With the exception of Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko (all three of which whom we should not be trading obviously), Kuzmenko is the only asset on the team that could land us a #2A/#3 calibre defenseman.   

 

2) Is Kuzmenko a good fit for Tocchet's more structured system?  If not, then why not sell high on the guy?

 

3) Given Kuzmenko's age, will he be a good long term core piece for us once his contract expires?  How much money will he command (assuming that he continues to flourish here).  

 

4) To what extent can a franchise center like Pettersson help elevate guys like Boeser, Garland, Mikheyev, Beauvillier, Hoglander, etc. if those guys play with Petey more? (in the absence of Kuzmenko).  Would JT Miller be able to do the same to the aforementioned players (i.e. guys that had been previously playing on the 3rd line now get promoted to play with Miller).   

 

From a farm promotion perspective, what's more likely next year?  Guys like Raty and/or Podkolzin being ready to 'step up' into the line-up, or guys like Willander, and Woo, Juulsen, being able to step into major roles?  

[Elias Pettersson]

19 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

No.  Just in my hypothetical scenario if we moved Kuzmenko for that #2A/#3 calibre d-man.  

 

Trading Kuzmenko in order to get a top 4 Dman is the same as using your visa to pay your mastercard.  You are simply moving money around to strengthen one area while weakening another.  If we had multiple 40 goal scoring wingers on the team, that would be a smart move.  But as of right now, he's our only winger capable of doing that and he is Petey's sidekick.

 

With the emergence of Lekkerimaki, we will need to make a big decision in the summer.  Who do we keep, Kuzmenko or Boeser?  We can't afford both of them.  Lekkerimaki seems like a natural fit to replace Boeser on Miller's right wing...

[IBatch]

On 10/19/2023 at 3:14 AM, CaptainCanuck12 said:

Friedman is much more inclined to play a gritty, truculent-type game as well, which I'm sure he'll show us as soon as he gets in the lineup.

Burroughs.   Not even close to that.   Bear >>.   And so far, would rather have Burroughs.   Depth guy really, bandaid while we wait for cap to shed. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Trading Kuzmenko in order to get a top 4 Dman is the same as using your visa to pay your mastercard.  You are simply moving money around to strengthen one area while weakening another.  If we had multiple 40 goal scoring wingers on the team, that would be a smart move.  But as of right now, he's our only winger capable of doing that and he is Petey's sidekick.

 

With the emergence of Lekkerimaki, we will need to make a big decision in the summer.  Who do we keep, Kuzmenko or Boeser?  We can't afford both of them.  Lekkerimaki seems like a natural fit to replace Boeser on Miller's right wing...

Yes but the difference is the mastercard you're paying off has 22% interest and the new one 6-7%.    Mikheyev likely does most of what Kuzmenko does for us as far as winning goes.   EP needs to get that make that big money, it means we will suffer in other ways.    Pretty much all the experts predicted a drop in shooting percentage this season.    It's not sustainable.   How many goals does Kuzmenko score with Miller instead?   Or someone else's 2nd line.    20-25 is my guess, not like he was tearing it up in the KHL.    To me he's the shiny new toy, and his lustre will fade.   Love his personality.   And don't really want to trade him, we simply have way too much money tied up in our wings right now.

 

     Do agree it sucks.   But facts are we have three NHL regulars on our D right now next year (Hronek still an RFA).   It's partially rebuilt.   Hronek and Soucy.   We have half of 3 lines built.   Adding one more would do wonders for that part of the game.    We have Beau and Garland, not ideal, but something anyways.    Wingers are a lot easier to acquire, via free agency, and don't command the same dough. 

 

If we could acquire a good 24-26 year old 4-5 on a deep team, for Kuzmenko, i'd pull the trigger.    Gambling on Mikheyev becoming part of EPs "pair".   Brock is already on pace for 50 goals.    Not expecting that.   Maybe Brock instead but wow that would suck for Miller.    

 

Probably best just to be patient and stay the course.   Next year will be the season that truly defines this teams future, but we might need to finally get ahead of it instead of reacting after the fact, or when it just makes a lot of sense (Horvat - JOT or just on time!).    The other way to do this, is start and keep looking for another JT Miller like trade.   Then we'd be adding without subtracting.   That would be for next years team when we have the cap space. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by IBatch

[Jeremy Hronek]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Trading Kuzmenko in order to get a top 4 Dman is the same as using your visa to pay your mastercard.  You are simply moving money around to strengthen one area while weakening another. 

 

I do see what you're saying but 

 

A) How much of Kuzmenko's production last year was a result of playing with Elias Pettersson?  

B) Even if it's not to the same degree, to what extent could a franchise centre like Pettersson help increase the production of his beneficiaries? (i.e. Boeser, Garland, etc.).   

C) Would some of our current 3rd line players such as Hoglander and Beauvillier see an increase in getting to play with someone like JT Miller?   

 

Taking next season into consideration, would it a fair assumption to make that guys like Podkolzin and Raty are far likelier to make the team as impact players as opposed to someone like Woo or McWard?  (I'm assuming that Willander won't be ready next season).  

 

So, that's kind of where I'm at right now as far as Kuzmenko goes.  I think we have more pieces up front and more in the pipeline up front that could realistically make up for the loss of Kuzmenko. I can see Kuzmenko as a guy that could land us that #2A/#3 calibre d-man that can play with Hughes until Willander is ready to step into that role (at which point, we move on from whomever this Return on Kuzmenko would be).   I

 

My other concern with Kuzmenko is that he's not a Rick Tocchet type player as far as playing under a structured system goes. Kuzmenko seems like he was built perfectly for Boudreau's system.  Given Kuzmenko's age, I'm also not sure if we'd be able to re-sign him at favourable term and money (assuming that there's no drop off in level of play).  

 

Now would I actually make a Kuzmenko deal?  I'm not so sure - I'd have to think about it more if I was GM but it does sound tempting.  

[Jeremy Hronek]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Who do we keep, Kuzmenko or Boeser? 

 

Boeser, like Garland, is currently unmovable and so we'd likely have no choice but to keep Boeser.  

 

Kuzmenko on the other hand has actual value (well.......for now. My concern is that he's going to take a step back this season under Tocchet's system).   

[aGENT]

3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

With the emergence of Lekkerimaki, we will need to make a big decision in the summer.  Who do we keep, Kuzmenko or Boeser?  We can't afford both of them.  Lekkerimaki seems like a natural fit to replace Boeser on Miller's right wing...

Summer? Assuming Lekk is even ready for a full time NHL gig next season, the earliest we even need to think of making a decision there, is the 24/25 TDL (or summer). The nice things is, Lekkerimaki gives us solid leverage to get a reasonable extension signed with whomever (or both) we choose to extend.

2 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Boeser, like Garland, is currently unmovable and so we'd likely have no choice but to keep Boeser.  

 

Kuzmenko on the other hand has actual value (well.......for now. My concern is that he's going to take a step back this season under Tocchet's system).   

 

We're in no position to be moving either guy at the moment. 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Summer? Assuming Lekk is even ready for a full time NHL gig next season, the earliest we even need to think of making a decision there, is the 24/25 TDL (or summer). The nice things is, Lekkerimaki gives us solid leverage to get a reasonable extension signed with whomever (or both) we choose to extend.

 

We're in no position to be moving either guy at the moment. 

Allvin isn’t going to wait until the trade deadline to make a decision on two pending UFA’s. He didn’t do that with Miller and Horvat. 
 

Either Kuzmenko or Boeser will be signed to an extension next summer. The one who isn’t will most likely get traded. When the trade happens is up in the air but my money would be on the trade happening well before the trade deadline. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Boeser, like Garland, is currently unmovable and so we'd likely have no choice but to keep Boeser.  

 

Kuzmenko on the other hand has actual value (well.......for now. My concern is that he's going to take a step back this season under Tocchet's system).   

Boeser is moveable in the summer. Or even during next season. I just can’t see Allvin giving Boeser an 8x8 contract if he’s at 30+ goals. He could be traded though IMO without retention next summer as a pending UFA. 

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

I do see what you're saying but 

 

A) How much of Kuzmenko's production last year was a result of playing with Elias Pettersson?  

B) Even if it's not to the same degree, to what extent could a franchise centre like Pettersson help increase the production of his beneficiaries? (i.e. Boeser, Garland, etc.).   

C) Would some of our current 3rd line players such as Hoglander and Beauvillier see an increase in getting to play with someone like JT Miller?   

 

Taking next season into consideration, would it a fair assumption to make that guys like Podkolzin and Raty are far likelier to make the team as impact players as opposed to someone like Woo or McWard?  (I'm assuming that Willander won't be ready next season).  

 

So, that's kind of where I'm at right now as far as Kuzmenko goes.  I think we have more pieces up front and more in the pipeline up front that could realistically make up for the loss of Kuzmenko. I can see Kuzmenko as a guy that could land us that #2A/#3 calibre d-man that can play with Hughes until Willander is ready to step into that role (at which point, we move on from whomever this Return on Kuzmenko would be).   I

 

My other concern with Kuzmenko is that he's not a Rick Tocchet type player as far as playing under a structured system goes. Kuzmenko seems like he was built perfectly for Boudreau's system.  Given Kuzmenko's age, I'm also not sure if we'd be able to re-sign him at favourable term and money (assuming that there's no drop off in level of play).  

 

Now would I actually make a Kuzmenko deal?  I'm not so sure - I'd have to think about it more if I was GM but it does sound tempting.  

We don’t have another Kuzmenko in the organization right now. The closest would be Lekkerimaki. Beauvillier would need an act of God to become a 30 goal scorer. Höglander same thing. Podkolzin is trending to be a 3rd liner. I wouldn’t be taking the risk to trade a 40 goal scorer to wait for these guys to replicate that. 
 

Kuzmenko isn’t getting 40 goals not playing with Petey. He’s not a play driver. But neither are any of the other guys including Boeser. If you take away Kuzmenko from Petey‘s line then who is replacing all his goals?  
 

The only way you trade Kuzmenko is if you feel that Lekkerimaki can come in and replace him on Petey’s wing. And you extend Boeser. That’s an option for sure. Play Mikheyev on the left side. If you can get a legit partner for Hughes by trading Kuzmenko then that’s an option. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[aGENT]

16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Allvin isn’t going to wait until the trade deadline to make a decision on two pending UFA’s. He didn’t do that with Miller and Horvat. 
 

Either Kuzmenko or Boeser will be signed to an extension next summer. The one who isn’t will most likely get traded. When the trade happens is up in the air but my money would be on the trade happening well before the trade deadline. 

 

Horvat also wasn't moved in the summer. Miller wasn't extended until Sept.

 

Who's to say they don't both extend? 

 

TLDR: You're jumping the gun.