[PGT] Tampa vs. Vancouver. Tampa wins 4-3

[kilgore]

34 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Guys, odd for me to say this but we lost to a contender last night and played hard. 

 

I absolutely hated the Philly game but funny that they also beat up the oilers too last night . Maybe Philly is a decent team and anything less than 100 percent against them will result in a tough night. 

Let's chill until the road trip is finished. We might still pull off a couple of wins. 

 

 

 

Yeah well, if the questions were... was "Was Edmonton that bad or we were that good?"  along with after the Philly game, knowing they also beat up on the Oilers..."Was Philly that good or were we that bad?" after that game.

 

Basically "Are we a better team than we thought or a worse team than we expected?"

 

If one can excuse the results in games against the Oilers and the Flyers with the reasoning that one of the opponents are playing below expectations, and one is playing above expectations, to me, the opportunity to answer that question was in playing Tampa Bay.  And unfortunately its seems we failed that test.

 

I don't want to be overly negative this early.....but we are back to .500,  and the D is still not improved a lot.  Rathbone, Woo, ...our young prospects didn't step up.  or acquisitions Juulsen, Wolanin weren't the unpolished diamonds we'd hoped for. (Idiotic letting Burroughs walk)  Can't afford to split up Hronek and Hughes.  On forward, I thought we had a glut of wingers.  Now we don't have enough talent to stock all 4 lines properly. Podz not making a step, is a disappointment. Mik still in recovery, not having surgery soon enough. Hoglander is still a bit of a question mark. Beau has really regressed. Kuz doesn't seem in shape at all hiding in Bali eating bananas. And Garland still plays like a free radical on any line...his linemates have no idea what he's doing or how to accommodate him.

 

No one wants any of Benning specials. Not only did Benning buy out his own mistakes in Gagner/Spooner, Holtby, Virtanen, but set up the next GM to be in a bad position and have to buy out OEL with a punishing hit the next couple of seasons, and probably have to retain salary on Garland.  All to get a single year of OELs and Garland's bloated salaries paid for.  I didn't think Benning could outdo the Eriksson signing, or Myers, but the OEL trade was such a historical lose/lose deal in the sad history of the Canucks trade history.

 

Sigh. 

Too soon to get too down.  Its just this season there was such promise going into the fall, Mik would be ready. Can Kuz do even better? Podz will finally evolve into a regular NHL player to shore up the lines, Hogz is a shoo in based on the Abby playoffs, Juulsen showed promise with Hughes, Players had a head start last season with Tocchet and were coming to camp in shape and early, and committed to Rick's more structured system. Which was really coming together at the end of last season. So much so it knocked us pretty much out of the Benard lottery. But that dashing of hope for the North Van phenom, was going to be repaid in spades with the headstart with Tocchet this season. And Allvin would fix the D over summer.

 

Gawd this team is a roller coaster ride.  From the ridiculous high of watching Boeser's 4th goal against Edmonton..to the Myer's led collapse against Tampa Bay and  back to .500 square one.

 

Okay. snap out of it.  This is OUR year!  We will squeak into the playoffs and then, as our esteemed owner said "anything can happen!"  Yeah that's it. Come on boys, get like a 3 game winning streak to make me look like a whining bandwagoner. Please.

 

 

 

 

[grumpyone]

just how in the world is Meyers a +4 so far this season.... what does he do, make a bad pass and race to the bench before the other team can score?

[Canuckle]

Just now, Joshua.Guy said:

Paywall for Drance? Not a chance. 

Pro tip.  If you use Firefox, if you click that button after you open paywill link it will bypass the block.

 

 

I mean I won't read a Drance article regardless but if you really want to...

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

Guys, odd for me to say this but we lost to a contender last night and played hard. 

 

 

Consider Tampa gave us arguably currently our best player at the cost of nobody on our roster tells you just how deep in personel that team was/is despite cap shinaningans.  

[NewbieCanuckFan]

6 minutes ago, grumpyone said:

just how in the world is Meyers a +4 so far this season.... what does he do, make a bad pass and race to the bench before the other team can score?

+/- isn't really a useful stat (imho) when evaluating a defenseman by itself.

[HorvatToBaertschi]

11 minutes ago, grumpyone said:

just how in the world is Meyers a +4 so far this season.... what does he do, make a bad pass and race to the bench before the other team can score?

Because he's a genius who knows that if he messes up on the penalty kill (which has been the issue these 4 games), it doesn't show up on the scoresheet as a minus. 

[Jaimito]

24 minutes ago, Joshua.Guy said:

Paywall for Drance? Not a chance. 

Drance: Tyler Myers’ tough night and why Canucks’ problems aren’t solely on him

TAMPA, Fla. — When you kill penalties against the Tampa Bay Lightning, you’re liable to look a bit silly on occasion.

The Lightning with the man advantage are precision incarnate. They boast one of the most ruthless distributors from the half-wall in the history of the sport opposite the single most accurate shooter of the last decade, with Victor Hedman up top and the NHL’s smartest bumper guy (now that Patrice Bergeron has retired) in Brayden Point.

Tampa’s least heralded “PP1” player is Nick Paul, who has three power-play goals in five games since inheriting the net-front spot on the unit from free agent departure Alex Killorn. It’s a testament to Tampa Bay’s power-play efficiency that Paul’s three goals with the man advantage have been scored from an average distance of 7.5 feet.

On Thursday night, the reeling Lightning — losers of three consecutive divisional games — carved up the Vancouver Canucks’ suddenly solid penalty kill, converting on two of their three opportunities in a one-goal victory. If the result was suboptimal, the truth is that Vancouver’s penalty kill was fine on form, good even. The club just had two key breakdowns at inopportune moments, the Lightning punished both of those mistakes, and on both of those key breakdowns, Canucks defender Tyler Myers was directly culpable.

The first breakdown occurred on Tampa Bay’s opening goal when the Canucks got a bit too cute on the penalty kill and attempted to play keep away in the neutral zone. An errant back pass to Myers sailed well side of him and around Vancouver’s net, where Thatcher Demko rimmed the puck around the wall and off forward Pius Suter at the left-side half-wall.

As the puck squirted loose to Myers in the slot, he had space and time to clear it with conviction. A slapper up the middle. A high flip out of the zone.

Instead, he sent the puck up the wall, where Paul cleanly picked it off. Two “Grade A” Steven Stamkos scoring chances, an untimely Myers slide that compounded the first mistake, and a Paul shot off of the second rebound later, and the Lightning had the lead.

Dave Mishkin calls Nick Paul's power play goal pic.twitter.com/xdn4pjF32A

— Bucs Rays Bolts (@BucsRaysBoltsYT) October 19, 2023

 

“I was trying to clear it,” said Myers postgame of his failed clearing attempt that led to the opening goal. “I think I had more time than I thought. I couldn’t get any air under (the puck), and looking back I wish I had held onto it a second longer. It was unfortunate.”

Hearing his answer, I followed up by asking Myers if he was struggling a bit with his confidence. I wondered if, perhaps, it’s the sort of play he might’ve taken more time on if he wasn’t squeezing his stick a bit too tightly, particularly after the club’s debacle performance in Philadelphia earlier this week.

“I don’t like that play,” he continued. “I don’t know how I could like it, but I like where my game is at. You know, it’s just a play I’d like back. The Philly game is one we’d all like to forget about, but overall we’re pushing to do the right things, and I like where my game is at mentally. We just need to keep pushing forward.”

The other penalty-killing breakdown occurred in the third period, when Elias Pettersson partially tied up Paul along the right-side boards after a puck rebounded to that part of the ice following a Paul jam attempt in the crease.

Defenders on the penalty kill are coached to react to certain triggers, moments when the puck slows and the power play cycle can be broken up, even by defenders in an outnumbered situation. A battle along the wall low in-zone is one such trigger.

Myers reacted promptly and attempted to even out the numbers in the puck battle, with Point already skating over to Paul’s aid. Unfortunately, instead of connecting with Point or with Paul, Myers instead split the two Lightning attackers and took out Pettersson, which permitted Tampa’s “PP1” a five-on-two opportunity down low that all Lightning attackers recognized immediately.

With Tampa’s skaters prowling toward the net like a pack of territorial raccoons, Paul simply waited until the sheer volume of options froze Demko before sending a pass to Kucherov for the game-winning goal.

Dave Mishkin calls Kucherov's power play goal, great setup by Nick Paul pic.twitter.com/CIfSk6awps

— Bucs Rays Bolts (@BucsRaysBoltsYT) October 20, 2023

 

“Petey created a battle in the corner,” Myers explained of how he saw the play unfold postgame. “I tried to get in there, pushed the guys into the battle. We got tangled up and they were able to pop out of the corner with it.”

Was it the right read, I asked, and just a bad outcome?

“I think so,” Myers said, handling my pointed question with commendable good humour. “I just need to try and push them into the pile and not Petey.”

As Canucks fans watched Myers’ tough night four-on-five unfold in real time, the pile-on began. The errors were loud and immediately resulted in goals against, to the point where Myers’ nickname — “Chaos Giraffe,” a reference to both his significant stature and his penchant for exciting plays in both directions — trended in Canada.

I can only imagine what non-hockey fans think when they see "Chaos Giraffe" trending in Canada  pic.twitter.com/0B4Z7rR1YJ

— Harman Dayal (@harmandayal2) October 20, 2023

 

And there’s really no defending the breakdowns on their merits. Myers had a tough game. He made two key, untimely mistakes that led to goals against, and he copped to that postgame. He knew, he owned it and he’s been around long enough to know that there’s going to be nights like this in a league like the NHL.

“There’s going to be breakdowns,” Myers said, reflecting on his game. “There’s no point in dwelling on it. It’s important for our young guys to know that bad things are going to happen, and if you sit down and hide, it’s no good for anyone.

“You just have to keep pushing forward, keep coming together as a group. I liked our game tonight, definitely some things to clean up structurally, but I thought we battled for a good chunk of the game.”

Vancouver did battle on Thursday night in Tampa, but in truth, the result — a second consecutive regulation loss — was deserved. Tampa Bay was the better team and controlled the game.

Vancouver took a pair of undisciplined penalties in the first that, because of the breakdowns, served to spot the Lightning the lead. After battling back early in the second period — with Myers himself scoring a seemingly redemptive go-ahead goal with a nearly perfect slap shot — Vancouver then looked stuck in the mud for a key 25-minute stretch in which the Lightning won the game.

From the moment Myers scored 62 seconds into the second frame until Myers took out Pettersson, permitting Paul to set up Kucherov’s game-winner about five minutes into the final frame, Vancouver was outshot 20-6. The club was good in the first period — the J.T. Miller line in particular looked dominant in stretches — excellent in the first minute of the second period and fought hard to comeback in the waning moments of the third period. There were commendable moments for Vancouver in this contest.

That 25-minute stretch, however, was killer. The penalty-kill breakdowns were costly, but that stretch was the game, and that’s on all 18 skaters in Vancouver’s lineup — not on Myers solely.

Hockey is a momentum game, and spending 25 minutes under siege is inevitable here and there over a long season. Vancouver, however, has played four games now, and stretches like the 25-minute lull that cost them on Thursday night in Tampa have occurred in each of their last three games.

Three games into this current road trip, and the club has been outshot by a ridiculous margin — 58 to 16 — with the long change in the second period. There’s just no way any team can survive regular, prolonged stretches where the ice is slanted like that on an every-game basis. Not even a team with a starting goaltender playing as well as Demko has to open this season.

No one can understand why it’s tempting for Canucks fans to imagine this club’s problems are solely the responsibility of one second-pair defender. Particularly when that player was acquired by the previous Canucks regime and is in the final year of their deal as Myers is. “The plan would be working if it weren’t for Myers and his oversized cap hit!”

Here are the facts, though: With Myers on the ice at five-on-five this season, the Canucks have outscored their opponents 5-1.

Vancouver’s underlying form with Myers on the ice at evens — its control of the territorial battle, as measured by shot attempts or expected goals or whatever peripheral measure you prefer — isn’t good, but it’s better than it has been with several of the club’s other defenders on the ice, including Carson Soucy and Ian Cole.

And Myers has been, from training camp through the preseason and even over the course of the first four games of the regular season, Vancouver’s fourth-best defender on merit.

This Canucks team isn’t better if Noah Juulsen or Mark Friedman or Cole McWard were to be plugged into Myers’ role. That’s pure fantasy.

It’s worth noting, in fact, that when Vancouver is bought in and rolling — as it was in the 2019-20 season, or in the bubble, or during “Bruce There It Is!” down the stretch of the 2021-22 campaign — Myers looks totally fine. When the environment around him is more challenging, however, Myers is often the player whose struggles are most noticeable.

Which speaks more to what Myers is and where he’s at in his career. Myers was drafted 15 years ago and will turn 34 this season. Although his cap hit is that of a 1A defender, which is inconvenient, Myers has understandably moved into a new phase of his career. He’s at the stage of his career where he’d be best used on a contending team as a supporting player, rather than as a top-four fixture.

And I’m convinced he’d be up to that task if given the opportunity, provided he’s in the right environment and in a more prescribed role, particularly given some of his rare attributes — the size, the reach, his ability to surf and defend the neutral zone. It’s just going to require better infrastructure and, unless the Canucks begin to control play at a more creditable rate, a better environment.

It’s understandably tempting to isolate the blame for the Canucks sputtering this week after two exciting wins over the Edmonton Oilers to open the season on Vancouver’s fourth-most-used defender.

If it’s all Myers’ fault, after all, then it’s easy to ignore that while Vancouver seems improved in so many facets of the game, this is still a team that once again isn’t performing near its potential in the early going.

(Photo: Kim Klement Neitzel / USA Today)

 

[SV.]

19 minutes ago, grumpyone said:

just how in the world is Meyers a +4 so far this season.... what does he do, make a bad pass and race to the bench before the other team can score?

Because, contrary to popular belief, he is not sole reason this team is unsuccessful.  A major symptom, yes, but countless others share the responsibility with him.
 

[Rip The Mesh]

Some how, Taylor makes it sound quite palatable.  Miller was really good again though. Hughes was too however all these years and we've never really got

the perfect partner for him.

 

 

[Bobby James]

Core was solid. Miller had a great game. Hughes with a couple solo dashes that led to good shots (and a post I think), Demko is unreal. 

 

I agree that Garland really isn't fitting on the Petey line. I wanted them to showcase him and get some points racked up before a trade, but I'm not liking the fit there at all. Too much floating around by Petey's linemates. Bottom 6 was meh overall.  

 

Hoglander however has looked good this year so far (which makes me pumped for him). Playing in a tough bottom 6 situation, but still being noticeable out there. Hoglander and Suter along with a big winger could be a solid 3rd line combo that can produce. 

[HorvatToBaertschi]

10 minutes ago, Bobby James said:

Core was solid. Miller had a great game. Hughes with a couple solo dashes that led to good shots (and a post I think), Demko is unreal. 

 

I agree that Garland really isn't fitting on the Petey line. I wanted them to showcase him and get some points racked up before a trade, but I'm not liking the fit there at all. Too much floating around by Petey's linemates. Bottom 6 was meh overall.  

 

Hoglander however has looked good this year so far (which makes me pumped for him). Playing in a tough bottom 6 situation, but still being noticeable out there. Hoglander and Suter along with a big winger could be a solid 3rd line combo that can produce. 

I'd argue Hoglander has earned himself a shot on Petey's line. I know he's had shifts there, but it's been with Lafferty as well. Make it Hogs-Petey-Kuz at least. 

[DeNiro]

9 minutes ago, Bobby James said:

Core was solid. Miller had a great game. Hughes with a couple solo dashes that led to good shots (and a post I think), Demko is unreal. 

 

I agree that Garland really isn't fitting on the Petey line. I wanted them to showcase him and get some points racked up before a trade, but I'm not liking the fit there at all. Too much floating around by Petey's linemates. Bottom 6 was meh overall.  

 

Hoglander however has looked good this year so far (which makes me pumped for him). Playing in a tough bottom 6 situation, but still being noticeable out there. Hoglander and Suter along with a big winger could be a solid 3rd line combo that can produce. 

Garland should drop to the second line with Mikheyev back. Miller and Brock are good along the walls, so Garland can be the guy that digs the puck out and gets it to the net.

 

Kuzmenko Pettersson Mikheyev

Garland Miller Boeser

Hoglander Suter Lafferty

PDG Blueger Beauvillier 

 

Joshua

 

How the lines will hopefully look once Mikheyev and Blueger are back.

[Canuckfanforlife82]

All you have to do is look at our wings and see the common theme and problem. Kuzmenko, Beau, Garland, Boeser. It's a bit redundant of a position. They are all small, not agressive enough and don't offer any physical attributes to the lineup. It's just too many of the same type of player. I am not sure why management hasn't seen that and changed it yet. They have likely tried but they are sort of stuck because of their contracts. Sad though.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Canuckfanforlife82

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, grumpyone said:

just how in the world is Meyers a +4 so far this season.... what does he do, make a bad pass and race to the bench before the other team can score?

I think that's it. Myers focuses all his skill and effort on getting off the ice.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

All you have to do is look at our wings and see the common theme and problem. Kuzmenko, Beau, Garland, Boeser. Its a bit redundant of a position. They are all small, not agressive enough and don't offer any physical attributes to the lineup. It's just too many of the same type of player. I am not sure why management changed it yet. They have likely tried but they are sort of stuck. 

Likely because of their contracts.  Might see some of them moved at or near the trading deadline.  Beau has at least an expiring deal so I think he might gather the most interest of the three (because of that).

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

Canucks need more defensemen who can skate and move the puck well.

 

That blueline is still heavily counting on Hughes and lesser degree on Hronek to do the heavy lifting.

 

I don't see the team having issues defending, but once they retrieve the puck, they make very bad decisions or are just too slow to moving it out. Which leads to the puck getting hemmed in the Dzone for sustained pressure for the opposition. I've overall liked the structure we have played with which has eliminated some real glaring defensive issues, but now its the inability and lack of skill on the backend to get the puck up to our forwards is what is hurting us a lot.

 

Hard to come by to find adequate defensemen who can move the puck and also defend well.

[PhillipBlunt]

DrunceCap clearly is writing a lot of his banal conjecture based on what he reads here. 

 

 

[Chickenspear]

I'm proud #ChaosGiraffe is trending.

[RolexSub]

Much better game compared to the Flyers game where we were a no show there. 

These 2 game lost reminds me of the Canucks of last season but a bit better. Myers again continuing to make these bad mistakes in D. And that is another reason why we lost so many games last year due to so many D mistakes. Let's hope they play a better aggressive team support going into Florida!!! 

[Jaimito]

Just now, RolexSub said:

Much better game compared to the Flyers game where we were a no show there. 

These 2 game lost reminds me of the Canucks of last season but a bit better. Myers again continuing to make these bad mistakes in D. And that is another reason why we lost so many games last year due to so many D mistakes. Let's hope they play a better aggressive team support going into Florida!!! 

Last season they just keep losing.  Really need to win one of the two remaining road games, ideally both.    

[NewbieCanuckFan]

58 minutes ago, CRAZY_4_NAZZY said:

Canucks need more defensemen who can skate and move the puck well.

 

That blueline is still heavily counting on Hughes and lesser degree on Hronek to do the heavy lifting.

 

I don't see the team having issues defending, but once they retrieve the puck, they make very bad decisions or are just too slow to moving it out. Which leads to the puck getting hemmed in the Dzone for sustained pressure for the opposition. I've overall liked the structure we have played with which has eliminated some real glaring defensive issues, but now its the inability and lack of skill on the backend to get the puck up to our forwards is what is hurting us a lot.

 

Hard to come by to find adequate defensemen who can move the puck and also defend well.

I think that is Tocchet reasoning for a tighter defensive system where the forwards can help mitigate the issues on the blueline.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[higgyfan]

44 minutes ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

All you have to do is look at our wings and see the common theme and problem. Kuzmenko, Beau, Garland, Boeser. It's a bit redundant of a position. They are all small, not agressive enough and don't offer any physical attributes to the lineup. It's just too many of the same type of player. I am not sure why management hasn't seen that and changed it yet. They have likely tried but they are sort of stuck because of their contracts. Sad though.

 

Boeser has put up 6pts in 4 games and appears to be stronger and  more present during the games, so

I don't include him with the other 3 players. 

 

We all know that Garland has been available for trade for some time now and I expect Beau

is in the same boat.  So far, they are the untradeable, but things can change as we head

into the winter months and injury bug strikes the NHL.

 

Kuze hasn't looked like the shooter we've become used to, but that might change when Mik

joins the team.  Regardless, I don't think he plays the kind of game that Tocc wants.  He would

likely be easy to trade and would get a good return, but that would leave a gaping hole on

the 1st line LW. 

[Joe King]

44 minutes ago, Chickenspear said:

I'm proud #ChaosGiraffe is trending.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think that's cool. Comparing some one to an animal in a non positive way focusing on something a person is born with and can't change. Or even a disability of some sort. I think it amounts to bullying.

[Chickenspear]

11 minutes ago, Joe King said:

Maybe it's just me but I don't think that's cool. Comparing some one to an animal in a non positive way focusing on something a person is born with and can't change. Or even a disability of some sort. I think it amounts to bullying.

I think you're reading into it too much.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

11 minutes ago, Joe King said:

Maybe it's just me but I don't think that's cool. Comparing some one to an animal in a non positive way focusing on something a person is born with and can't change. Or even a disability of some sort. I think it amounts to bullying.