PGT - Canucks-3: NYRefs-4: Shit happens.

[-dlc-]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

It calls into question the entire integrity of the game itself.

 

That's already in question.

[MeanSeanBean]

Just now, -dlc- said:

That's already in question.

Always has been.

[JIAHN]

I  missed the game last night and thought I would read the last few pages of this thread to catch up.....................God! My mistake!

 

I hate refs, but in saying that, the Refs and Linesmen, have to watch alot of things in a game, 12 legal players, the odd illegal player who is going to the bench, and decides to be part of the action, the bench itself, and the stands. All of this is done in real time. 

 

Not to mention the refs own position, which way he is looking, any distractions, what player has the puck, etc...........

 

You would think all this should not matter, but the truth is, "You" could not do it, and make good call even 10% of the time. Remember, these are the cream of the crop, the worlds best, and we sit and judge them from the comfort of the stands, where we see the lead up to the incident, or the comfort of our own home, where we get the added benefit of instant replay.

 

The time is coming where AI might be incorporated into the game, and there will be very few, if any mistakes. (This could cause 4 1/2 games! ) Anyways, when this happens, the game will be very vanilla, and clean, but it will take time to get there, and to be honest, I am not sure it will be a better game.

 

Just remember in the NFL there could be holding in the line, every play, whistles constantly blowing, and to clean it up, would result in an extremely depleted  group of quarter backs...........how does this apply to the NHL?.........well, for anyone playing junior or above, they will tell you of the small holds, intentional interference, baby spears, gloves in the face, and countless other things, that if a ref blew his whistle on, would make the game painful to watch............

 

All this being said.............sure go ahead and whine.............I do! 

[Elias Pettersson]

12 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

 

 

They have the Oilers as favourites to win the cup along with Carolina, so not sure we can put too much stock into this...

[Dr. Crossbar]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

There it is.

 

That's the game itself! Just think if we follow the logic through. Anything you do just playing the game could be under the microscope and overturn goals. A battle in the corner. Guys are fighting it out.   They overturn it because one got unfair advantage in body position, maybe a little hold here or there... players crashing into eachother...

 

What wouldn't be on the table to be scrutinized?

 

A review system which calls into question missed calls everywhere calls into question the integrity of the game itself.

 

I agree with you. And I like your question about what wouldn't be on the table. That's a great starting point for people to agree on and get on the same page.

 

By identifying what wouldn't be on the table you're at least deciding what aspects of the game are key to preserving the integrity of the game.

 

We're already at that place of talking about "more reviews", "more challenges" years on from the initial debate when we first began the review/challenge process.

 

 

[Sapper]

The biggest difference is how this team reacts to being screwed over 

 

For several years the Canucks response would have been to pout and play like a team defeated 

 

This years team gonna be pissed and is going to play like it

 

I'd wager the preds are going to get blasted by a furious Canucks team.that needs to take out their anger and the next team in is going to be on the recieving end 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Sapper

[Joshua.Guy]

14 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

 

I think they're out to lunch with The Kings though wtf lol

[Huggy Bear]

 

36 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

I say no.

 

A review process for missed calls everywhere with the potential to overturn goals challenges the entire intregity of the game itself.

 

Bad idea.

 

Please reread. The suggestion was just for OT goals, not calls everywhere. 

 

The bolded is over dramatic nonsense. Adding video reviews to the NHL didn’t challenge the integrity of the game. It improved it.

[JIAHN]

24 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

There it is.

 

That's the game itself! Just think if we follow the logic through. Anything you do just playing the game could be under the microscope and overturn goals. A battle in the corner. Guys are fighting it out.   They overturn it because one got unfair advantage in body position, maybe a little hold here or there... players crashing into eachother...

 

What wouldn't be on the table to be scrutinized?

 

A review system which calls into question missed calls everywhere calls into question the integrity of the game itself.

@Dr. Crossbar @Canuckle

 

This is what I am getting at in my last post..............well done!

[-dlc-]

7 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

I hate refs, but in saying that, the Refs and Linesmen, have to watch alot of things in a game, 12 legal players, the odd illegal player who is going to the bench, and decides to be part of the action, the bench itself, and the stands. All of this is done in real time. 

 

 

It was OT....they had 6 players and 2 goaltenders to watch. Don't make it sound harder than it was.

Quote

"You" could not do it

Also, you're right...."I" could not do it. But I have not been trained or hired to do it nor do I make the $200,000-$450,000/year that they make.

 

Kind of silly to use this as any kind of argument for subpar work performances. They probably couldn't do my job either.

[stawns]

14 minutes ago, Messier_Sucks said:

This needs to be done ASAP. 

 

The league has started scrutinizing offsides so much and most of the times these offsides aren't even detectable by the human eye. So no human linesman won't be able to get the job done as evidenced by the amount of goals called back already.  

 

 

Have you ever officiated a hockey game?

[MeanSeanBean]

9 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

I  missed the game last night and thought I would read the last few pages of this thread to catch up.....................God! My mistake!

 

I hate refs, but in saying that, the Refs and Linesmen, have to watch alot of things in a game, 12 legal players, the odd illegal player who is going to the bench, and decides to be part of the action, the bench itself, and the stands. All of this is done in real time. 

 

Not to mention the refs own position, which way he is looking, any distractions, what player has the puck, etc...........

 

You would think all this should not matter, but the truth is, "You" could not do it, and make good call even 10% of the time. Remember, these are the cream of the crop, the worlds best, and we sit and judge them from the comfort of the stands, where we see the lead up to the incident, or the comfort of our own home, where we get the added benefit of instant replay.

 

The time is coming where AI might be incorporated into the game, and there will be very few, if any mistakes. (This could cause 4 1/2 games! ) Anyways, when this happens, the game will be very vanilla, and clean, but it will take time to get there, and to be honest, I am not sure it will be a better game.

 

Just remember in the NFL there could be holding in the line, every play, whistles constantly blowing, and to clean it up, would result in an extremely depleted  group of quarter backs...........how does this apply to the NHL?.........well, for anyone playing junior or above, they will tell you of the small holds, intentional interference, baby spears, gloves in the face, and countless other things, that if a ref blew his whistle on, would make the game painful to watch............

 

All this being said.............sure go ahead and whine.............I do! 

Bummer game to miss Jan, one of the better games I've watched this team play in the last decade.

Edited October 29, 2023 by MeanSeanBean

[Huggy Bear]

44 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

Some people don't believe that you have to "suck" stuff up and accept it...change doesn't happen that way. 

The league considers improvements on the game every year. Being adversed to changing the game for the better is ignoring that the game has been evolving for years.

[JIAHN]

Just now, -dlc- said:

It was OT....they had 6 players and 2 goaltenders to watch. Don't make it sound harder than it was.

 

I did not see the play Deb............my point is, it is a split second decision, and all those other factors are in that moment

 

Have you ever refed at that speed?

 

Like I said, I did not see the game, but I surely did not see it through the refs eyes either............

[MeanSeanBean]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

Have you ever officiated a hockey game?

Haven't we all? Isn't that a requirement to get a Canadian passport?

[-dlc-]

1 hour ago, JIAHN said:

 

I did not see the play Deb............my point is, it is a split second decision, and all those other factors are in that moment

 

Have you ever refed at that speed?

 

Like I said, I did not see the game, but I surely did not see it through the refs eyes either............

If you didn't see it maybe watch it first then we can discuss further.  Cheers.

Quote

but I surely did not see it through the refs eyes either......

Neither did they. 

[spook007]

8 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

I  missed the game last night and thought I would read the last few pages of this thread to catch up.....................God! My mistake!

 

I hate refs, but in saying that, the Refs and Linesmen, have to watch alot of things in a game, 12 legal players, the odd illegal player who is going to the bench, and decides to be part of the action, the bench itself, and the stands. All of this is done in real time. 

 

Not to mention the refs own position, which way he is looking, any distractions, what player has the puck, etc...........

 

You would think all this should not matter, but the truth is, "You" could not do it, and make good call even 10% of the time. Remember, these are the cream of the crop, the worlds best, and we sit and judge them from the comfort of the stands, where we see the lead up to the incident, or the comfort of our own home, where we get the added benefit of instant replay.

 

The time is coming where AI might be incorporated into the game, and there will be very few, if any mistakes. (This could cause 4 1/2 games! ) Anyways, when this happens, the game will be very vanilla, and clean, but it will take time to get there, and to be honest, I am not sure it will be a better game.

 

Just remember in the NFL there could be holding in the line, every play, whistles constantly blowing, and to clean it up, would result in an extremely depleted  group of quarter backs...........how does this apply to the NHL?.........well, for anyone playing junior or above, they will tell you of the small holds, intentional interference, baby spears, gloves in the face, and countless other things, that if a ref blew his whistle on, would make the game painful to watch............

 

All this being said.............sure go ahead and whine.............I do! 

Very true... in OT a third of the players are removed, so it should be a lot easier to keep an eye proceedings...

[Dr. Crossbar]

36 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Anything you do just playing the game could be under the microscope and overturn goals. A battle in the corner. Guys are fighting it out.   They overturn it because one got unfair advantage in body position, maybe a little hold here or there... players crashing into eachother...

 

An alternative, out of the box way to look at this from a Devil's Advocate perspective ...

 

I think it's valid to ask ... Is this what people want as the ultimate solution, and is this where the game should go?

 

If yes, then let's go all in and see what the game looks like with everything under the microscope and up for review/challenge. Maybe that has to happen. Maybe that is better. 

 

If no, then that's also a starting point to identifying what wouldn't be on the table.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Dr. Crossbar

[Joe King]

Some of the arguments against reviewing controversial plays seems that one the refs would be against it. We won't know that unless we ask them. I'm sure some would be ok with it. Making mistakes is human to be able to fix the mistake may be preferable to all this controversy. And extra time to review a questionable play, heck games are much shorter time wise than in the 70's and 80's. Maybe don't have so many tv time outs

Edited October 29, 2023 by Joe King

[Johngould21]

How many goals are called back in a season, over a reviewed offside call? I doubt it's many. I believe more goals are allowed/disallowed because officials both on and off ice can't see the puck cross the goal line. Which, over a season aren't many. Basically it comes down to officials not calling what fans are clearly seeing during a game. That OT goal last night should have some kind of a review. The worst part of it was that the play turned into a 3 on 1 after the turnover.

During that game how many times did one of the linesmen working the game get hit by the puck, knocked down, or tripped by players on the ice? Last night was one of the worst games I've seen for officials being taken out of the play. It's a tough job, mistakes happen let's move on to the Nashville game. The Canucks got a point from one of the top teams, playing their elite goalie, while the home team was playing the second of a back to back.

[JIAHN]

So, I am the ref.

 

I am watching Petersson, then out of the corner of my eye, I see a spear or some interference, and I watch out of the said "corner of my eye", and out of the other corner of the other eye,  Petersson goes down. Wait, I say, did I see that? Am I sure? Oh. those other guys are jawing, oh, ok, they are separating, good, oh, the fans are booing, I must have missed something, I guess I will see it later, oh, shit! I got to get going, Friggin turn over............

 

All happing in a split second.............yes, some very obvious things get missed..........and it sucks, when they happen to our team

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by JIAHN

[Huggy Bear]

4 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

If you didn't see it maybe watch it first then we can discuss further.  Cheers.

Neither did they.  

Exactly. Why weigh in without the relevant info?

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, -dlc- said:

That's already in question.

 

Of course it is. As it should be. But what's the recourse? Do you want a game called 100% by the rule book in every way, where everything is potentially up for review to overturn goals?
 

 

Hockey is a fast, heavy, violent contact sport. Guys battle to get unfair advantage over eachother in every way. That's the game itself. Uncalled infractions are part of the game of hockey itself. For example, how many potential holds, hooks, trips, interference calls in board battles are 'missed' (or rather ignored) in any given game?  Do we review every single thing ever player does at all times?

 

What would the game look like? And especially, what would the playoffs look like?

 

There's a difference between  egregious calls being missed like the Sharks hand pass in the playoffs and the Pettersson subjective trip last night and opening the wider "everything is reviewable" to potentially overturn goals.

 

Calls into question the game of hockey as a game itself, imo.

[Huggy Bear]

43 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

The problem I see with this is that the coach would be challenging a non-call penalty. 

They review non-calls on offsides that overturn goals. How would this be different?

[JayDangles]

26 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Doesn't matter when it is. If we're talking about a game like hockey being called 100% to the rule book, the game would be dead as we know it. Hockey comes packaged with subjectively missed calls in damn near every facet of the game and would call into question the entire intregity of the game itself.

 

I think Pettersson was tripped, too. But some things in this sport aren't reviewable for good reason.

OK fair. I get it.

But what good reason is there not to review an infraction that was clearly missed that resulted in a a game ending goal in OT?

I'm all for changing nothing at all during the 60 minutes. 

Only in OT and only if the game ends immediately after.