PGT - Canucks-3: NYRefs-4: Shit happens.

[OffGridCamperDude]

14 hours ago, 4petesake said:

 

Teams might not be allowed to criticize refs but nothing is stopping player agents. Hronek’s Rep had a little something to get off his chest.

 

 

Guys a beauty haha

[spook007]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

I was just looking at the box score again. The thing about last night was that we were really overcoming the reffing - I mean, working harder despite the refs. Just look at Myers short-handed goal, then the penalties came, and then Soucy put us back in it.

 

We were clawing back despite the refs and that's what it needs to be ... unfortunately. We have to take the refs out with our play. We've all experienced this before.

 

 

 

Its a process and they need to learn to be mentally tough, when they are up against it, and yesterday was a big step in the right direction....

They keep that level intensity and this easily a play off team.... and a good one at that...

[Dr. Crossbar]

58 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

The time is coming where AI might be incorporated into the game, and there will be very few, if any mistakes. (This could cause 4 1/2 games! ) Anyways, when this happens, the game will be very vanilla, and clean, but it will take time to get there, and to be honest, I am not sure it will be a better game

 

I hate to say it but there may come a time when we actually might miss the bad reffing.

 

I mean, when you think about it, the flaws of the officiating makes for colorful discussion on a human level. Take that away and it'll be pretty sterile. 

[Canuckle]

49 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

OK fair. I get it.

But what good reason is there not to review an infraction that was clearly missed that resulted in a a game ending goal in OT?

I'm all for changing nothing at all during the 60 minutes. 

Only in OT and only if the game ends immediately after.

 

It's funny. OT is probably the one place we'd probably want these reviews the least when you think about it.

 

How many blatant picks, battles with grabbing, hooking, etc. with all that open ice, similar levels in skill... how do you beat your man without some kind of hard battle that could subjectively be labeled as an infraction?

 

The entire game of hockey is players trying to gain advantage on eachother legally and illegally with things being missed and/or purposefully uncalled. I ask, would it even be NHL hockey if it wasn't?

 

It's not like we're talking an offside or whether a puck crossed a goal line. If we open it up to overturning a goal on anything, it calls into question the game itself and how it's played. I think the reason not to do it kinda speaks for itself. It's a bit of a damned if you do damned if you don't type situation, imo. And trust me I didn't like what happened last night either. I was fucking furious. Still don't think reviews on missed calls are a great approach to fixing it though.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Canuckle

[-dlc-]

1 hour ago, TheGuardian said:

See this is an issue, I see Pettersson trying to do a fancy between the legs pass splitting his legs apart INTO Krieder's path. EP's leg moved more towards Krieder than Krieder's moved towards him.

LOL

 

Yeah you're right. Kreider didn't mean to.

[OrcaBait]

I don’t see that game as a loss for the Canucks, in my mind they won that game playing some of the best hockey from the club in recent years!

 

Unfortunately the refs won the game for the Rangers. It’s just one game and there is no way I am down on the team  in any way. 
 

Quinns leadership is really shining through with the team and how they are gel’n on the ice. 
 

Fuck NYR as this team has a special place in hell in my heart for them…. Fuckin 94….

 

Any way, it’s just one game, and it’s still super early on in the season. Could be worse…. You could be an Oilers Fan right now.

[Westcoasting]

15 hours ago, Rindiculous said:

You can just tell Juice is fuming after that with his question about refs to Ron

I doubt it, him and Ron are best friends now going on holidays together with their wives etc. the trick is don’t read to much into media guys.

[-dlc-]

9 minutes ago, Goal_thecup said:

Yeah.  I tire of fighting the power.  I want to be the power.

I want our team to get the breaks and Win The Stanley Cup!

 

(I can hear my mom, who's still yell'n' at the refs at 94: "I want never gets.")

Good take.

 

And why give the refs extra power (notoriety, good or bad) and allowing their stance to be argued as it is here. Best to ignore them I guess.

 

They suck, whatever, move on. I'm trying to...it's getting easier as I get more used to the inconsistent incompetence of it all. Becoming slightly immune to it.

 

Back in '94 I was livid. It's sad though. to become numb and lose some of the passion for the game because it ends in such a way.  Losing is one thing, but feeling cheated in a game that was so exciting is quite deflating. Anti-climatic.

 

The team is awesome so I think they can even overcome the obstacle of playing some good teams and against some blind refs. They're covering all the bases.

[hockeyfan-observer]

Solid point last night given the non-call in OT,  two double penalty advantages and also the second game in two nights (though the Rangers were actually playing at 1230am their local time)

 

I liked the Canuck's resolve though - coming back from a goal down with a few minutes left.against a hot goalie and a veteran roster.  Team probably deserved the 2 points based on their play but the season usually balances out  (eg.  beating Oilers when we were outshot 40-16).

 

Time to turn the page on this one though and prepare for the Preds who will be " itching to return the favour" after we beat them last week.

Hopefully, the team does not dwell too much on matching a contender as I suspect Nashville will be very well prepared  - inter conference game are more important.

 

Nonetheless, great effort by the boyz and I am satisfied with the point - hope for a better result on Tuesday

[Dr. Crossbar]

6 minutes ago, spook007 said:

 

Its a process and they need to learn to be mentally tough, when they are up against it, and yesterday was a big step in the right direction....

They keep that level intensity and this easily a play off team.... and a good one at that...

 

They showed a lot of mental toughness and resilience last night. 

 

Another power play goal would have really helped us last night ... so that would be a big takeaway if I was Tocchet.

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, Huggy Bear said:

 

 

Please reread. The suggestion was just for OT goals, not calls everywhere. 

 

The bolded is over dramatic nonsense. Adding video reviews to the NHL didn’t challenge the integrity of the game. It improved it.

Doesn't matter where and when 'missed calls' are challenged.

 

Missed calls, and even intentionally uncalled subjective penalties are part of the game.

 

You simply aren't following the logic through.... especially for something like overtime.

 

And yes, bolded for your viewing pleasure.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Canuckle

[Goal_thecup]

3 hours ago, Tecumseh said:

RT can coach and cook. Maybe he can teach the boys? This guy is really funny for a tough guy. 

In my experience, most really tough guys are funny, and many are also the nicest guys off the ice (or out of the alley).

Thanks for The Toch Chef show, Ric's a riot.  The team must love him.

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, -dlc- said:

While this is very pc I think name calling also falls under the petty and childish umbrella. People are allowed to express their opinion and vent and none of us is better than the rest. 

 

Some people don't believe that you have to "suck" stuff up and accept it...change doesn't happen that way. 

 

Has nothing to do with sportsmanship. The fact that you state "calls even themselves out" sort of makes my point and a matter of the refs aiming for that. That's not how it should be done. And, if so, one team got two 5 on 3's. They also got away with an uncalled too many men. And a pick. Both things the other team got called for. "Uneven".

 

So the evening out should've happened by the call being made in OT. Whether it was ill timed or not. I'm sick of asterisks beside calls....make them even if it's one team doing 10 things in a row. That's on them.

 

You're absolutely right we should both be entitled to our opinion. That was mine as I agreed with @Rekkers comment.

 

As a fan if it makes you feel better to call the refs out then by all means go for it. I personally think it's a waste of time as I've never seen a ref change his mind due to complaints. If you do it repeatedly as an athlete though I definitely think it's reflective of bad sportsmanship. That's just the way I was taught and it was something I will admit I had to work on as a player.

 

It's one of the lessons we teach the young hockey players at our hockey schools. You're going to get bad calls. Don't get caught up in arguments with the referee and lose your focus. Save your time and energy to do something positive instead of worrying about the ref and making excuses about why you lost.

 

If you truly do want to see the referees "always" get it right all the time the whole system probably needs to be re-vamped. I think having some more referees either situated above the glass and more watching on video would help. I don't mind it the way it is though but I can appreciate how frustrating it must be for you. I'm not sure what the answer is to make it better for you.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[Dr. Crossbar]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

Doesn't matter where and when 'missed calls' are challenged.

 

Missed calls, and even intentionally uncalled subjective penalties are part of the game.

 

You simply aren't following the logic though.... especially for something like overtime.

 

And yes, bolded for your viewing pleasure.

 

For years people didn't want calls in OT. They wanted OT to be loose to let the players play. 

 

It's a fine line.

 

 

[Inkidu]

8 hours ago, AmyTheGma said:

 

 

Hmm we would have caught up with the AVs in the standings. 

 

Still think having the option of just calling the play dead in overtime for "judgment" infractions makes sense.

 

In overtime the refs are reluctant to give a 4 on 3 because it gives a team a greater advantage than a 5 on 4, but that sort of cancels out the usual practice of making a "close" call if not doing so results in a scoring chance for the offending team. I think that's what happened.

 

Just call the play dead, don't let the offending team make changes and face of in their zone.

 

And of course, penalize anyone for overt infractions. 

 

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

 

Hmm we would have caught up with the AVs in the standings. 

 

Still think having the option of just calling the play dead in overtime for "judgment" infractions makes sense.

 

In overtime the refs are reluctant to give a 4 on 3 because it gives a team a greater advantage than a 5 on 4, but that sort of cancels out the usual practice of making a "close" call if not doing so results in a scoring chance for the offending team. I think that's what happened.

 

Just call the play dead, don't let the offending team make changes and face of in their zone.

 

And of course, penalize anyone for overt infractions. 

 

Would you feel that way if your team was absolutely dominating play in ot and had all the momentum and they stopped that momentum to check for a call?

[Goal_thecup]

5 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

Back in '94 I was livid.

I meant my mom is 94 and still swearing at the refs on TV.

I better go back and edit that post.

 

She also has a full repertoire of stuff like, "Hit him!  Kill him!"

She is not very politically correct but she does not swear.

 

And she's loud enough to be heard by all her fellow residents in care.

And she does not care.  "Get out of my room!"

You'd know which room she was in as soon as you got in the door if the Lions or the Canucks were on TV.

[-dlc-]

1 minute ago, Goal_thecup said:

I meant my mom is 94 and still swearing at the refs on TV.

I better go back and edit that post.

 

She also has a full repertoire of stuff like, "Hit him!  Kill him!"

She is not very politically correct but she does not swear.

 

And she's loud enough to be heard by all her fellow residents in care.

And she does not care.  "Get out of my room!"

You'd know which room she was in as soon as you got in the door if the Lions or the Canucks were on TV.

My Mom would've loved her!

[Dr. Crossbar]

6 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

I think having some more referees either situated above the glass and more watching on video would help

 

That's not a bad idea. Have a secondary team of officials off the ice. Penalty gets called on the ice or off. I'd be open to trying that. 

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

For years people didn't want calls in OT. They wanted OT to be loose to let the players play. 

 

It's a fine line.

 

Especially for 3 on 3 given what that actually looks like. Why even have it if calling back a goal on a 'missed' infraction is on the table with the inevitable battles that happen in that format. Just skip OT and go straight to a shootout then.

[Goal_thecup]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

So, game management is acceptable then, no?

What is it you think they should do?  There's not a pool of officials out there better than the ones already in the NHL 

Ask a stupid question...

Get a smart ass answer.

Ask another stupid question...

Did you get hit on the head, @stawns??

3 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

 

You are taking me way too seriously. Lighten up. 

No, no, a thousand times NO.

[Huggy Bear]

1 hour ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

 

I agree with you. And I like your question about what wouldn't be on the table. That's a great starting point for people to agree on and get on the same page.

 

Good point. Let’s build an argument from there.

 

What wouldn’t be on the table if OT calls/non-calls leading to a goal we’re eligible for review:

• Anything in 60 minutes of regulation for all games
• Anything in the  ~77% of games that don’t go to OT
• Anything in the ~8% of games that end in-shootout
• So, 85% of games are completely unaffected 
• Any non-calls in OT before the last two possessions* that lead to an OT goal
• Any unchallenged penalties that lead to a PP goal (can’t challenge after the fact)

What would be on the table:

• Of the remaining ~15% of games that end in OT, only those with questionable penalties or non-calls leading to goals (maybe a third of games, to be generous?)
• With the pattern of refs ‘putting their whistles away’ in OT, there should be less penalties overall to be challenged
• *Non-call challenges could be limited to the last two possessions leading to the GWG. This accounts for a non-call resulting in turnover, then a goal the other way (like the potential trip on Pettersson)
• Of 1312 regular season games per year, that’s about 65 games per year, for an average of two reviews per team, per regular season

To disincentivize superfluous ‘Hail Mary’ challenges, give each coach one challenge per year, that’s taken away if they make an unsuccessful challenge.

 

For video reviews so far (offsides and goalie interference), this has kept coaches challenges very honest. Last year, there were 208 total coach’s challenges, with 68% being overturned.

 

That’s 142 mistakes that were corrected, improving the consistency in calls, and integrity of the game. 

source: https://scoutingtherefs.com/nhl-coachs-challenge-tracker-2022-23/

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Huggy Bear
grammar

[Messier_Sucks]

54 minutes ago, Johngould21 said:

How many goals are called back in a season, over a reviewed offside call? I doubt it's many. I believe more goals are allowed/disallowed because officials both on and off ice can't see the puck cross the goal line. Which, over a season aren't many. Basically it comes down to officials not calling what fans are clearly seeing during a game. That OT goal last night should have some kind of a review. The worst part of it was that the play turned into a 3 on 1 after the turnover.

During that game how many times did one of the linesmen working the game get hit by the puck, knocked down, or tripped by players on the ice? Last night was one of the worst games I've seen for officials being taken out of the play. It's a tough job, mistakes happen let's move on to the Nashville game. The Canucks got a point from one of the top teams, playing their elite goalie, while the home team was playing the second of a back to back.

 

Last year alone there were nearly 100 goals overturned due to offside. That's a substantial number. 

 

 

 

[Goal_thecup]

2 hours ago, SilentSam said:

With you Stawns,  

I think with a GOAL  in OVERTIME ,

the opposing team should be allowed to have a review of any single incident brought up thought to be a penalty to the last stoppage OR offside upon entry.

 

At least give the Refs the opportunity to correct a mistake or miss.

as it is, the refs don’t have the opportunity to correct something they might even question.

 

I think the problem is not with getting the call right or bias or really anything like that.

I think that when the goal decides the game, everybody wants to celebrate (or not), and move on: the refs, the teams, the crowd, the media, everybody's going, "That's it."

To call everybody back and review the entrails ruins the experience.

I think that's why they didn't call back Brett Hull's kicking it in or Otto's in the crease.

It's like the director saying, "That's a wrap."  Party on is implied.

[JayDangles]

33 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

It's funny. OT is probably the one place we'd probably want these reviews the least when you think about it.

 

How many blatant picks, battles with grabbing, hooking, etc. with all that open ice, similar levels in skill... how do you beat your man without some kind of hard battle that could subjectively be labeled as an infraction?

 

The entire game of hockey is players trying to gain advantage on eachother legally and illegally with things being missed and/or purposefully uncalled. I ask, would it even be NHL hockey if it wasn't?

 

It's not like we're talking an offside or whether a puck crossed a goal line. If we open it up to overturning a goal on anything, it calls into question the game itself and how it's played. I think the reason not to do it kinda speaks for itself. It's a bit of a damned if you do damned if you don't type situation, imo. And trust me I didn't like what happened last night either. I was fucking furious. Still don't think reviews on missed calls are a great approach to fixing it though.

If you're OK with them calling a goal back because a player was 2" offside, but not ok calling a goal back when a player is tripped up in OT then I don't know what to say.