PGT - Canucks-3: NYRefs-4: Shit happens.

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Each team gets a challenge for missed calls on things like kicking motion and offside leading to a goal, how is this different? It should be added to the rule that any missed call, including a penalty on a play that turns into a goal should be open to challenge. If linesmen can miss an offside call, refs can miss a trip, or a hook causing an odd-man rush, etc. Something like this, especially in OT where a player going down would almost inevitably turn into a odd-man rush, should be open to challenge. 

Because games are already faaaar too long.

[-dlc-]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

Because games are already faaaar too long.

That's your opinion though.

 

Some of us would gladly sacrifice a few extra minutes so they could get things right. Time well spent.

[DeNiro]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

Because games are already faaaar too long.

[tas]

it's.an 82 game season, things even out. let me get to bed by 11:00 for chrissakes. 

[Alflives]

.

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, tas said:

it's.an 82 game season, things even out. let me get to bed by 11:00 for chrissakes. 

We’re talking like 3-5 minutes added

 

If you have an issue with getting to bed earlier then your beef is with start times. Game time could be 6:00-6:30.

[Dr. Crossbar]

Oh, here we go ...

 

 

[Barnstorm]

I don’t recall ever watching a game and thinking to myself  “ I wish this would just hurry up and end.” Even the blow outs are entertaining in one way or another. 
 

 

[Canuckle]

39 minutes ago, Huggy Bear said:

It’s not the same. Every call is not the same as trying it for about 60 OT calls/non-calls each year. 
 

You keep avoiding the question of how video calls (including subjective non-calls of goalie interference that can happen in 3 on 3 OT) have ANY connection to the physicality or integrity GPG the game. 

 

You also haven’t acknowledged that 68%of challenges calls are overturned, which has improved the integrity of the game. That includes subjective non calls for goalie interference. 
 

The evidence that coaches challenge is needed is in the fans and media reaction to last nights’s OT, and the pages of conversation you’re participating in.

 

If you keep avoiding questions, and can’t provide evidence, we can’t really debate this issue.  Think we had the right idea with agree to disagree.

 

Dismissing and handwaving the reality of the NHL game is why you don't see "the evidence." The evidence is the way the entire game is played itself.

 

Yes, 8 messages ago we settled on agree to disagree but you kept on replying after.  Apparently not actually agreeing to disagree? Lol.

 

But yes. We can leave it here.  Have a good day.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Canuckle

[-dlc-]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

And if you keep dismissing and  handwaving the reality of the NHL game. The "evidence" is the way the game is played itself. And until you actually put understand the underlying premise you won't understand what I'm saying what I'm saying here.

 

Yes, 8 messages ago we settled on agree to disagree but you kept on replying after.  Apparently not actually agreeing to disagree? Lol.

 

But yes. We can leave it here.  Have a good day.

So, in simple terms, what is "the reality of the NHL game"?

 

 

[Canuckle]

7 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

So, in simple terms, what is "the reality of the NHL game"?

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Canuckle
;)

[aGENT]

11 minutes ago, Barnstorm said:

I don’t recall ever watching a game and thinking to myself  “ I wish this would just hurry up and end.” Even the blow outs are entertaining in one way or another. 
 

 

Old wild games? Coyotes?  

[coolboarder]

7 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

still too much of the officials personal preferences involved. How is a player supposed to know that the ref has now decided play will open up? its not like a light goes off.

 

I just want to see consistency and predictability for the players.

 

Even things like too many men. That would be an easy AI fix. Actually with game tracking tech right now that could be automated. 

With the technology we have now, why couldn't they even buzz it in for too many men?  It is fairly easy to track and buzz it in and ref should wear the earpiece and use their judgment.  That is given them a better tool so that they do not miss too many men calls for other teams.  It should be a black and white type that go along with black and white call with over the glass penalty.  Rest of other penalties are very subjective and their visual interpretation are different from other ref on the same play.   

[Barnstorm]

22 minutes ago, tas said:

it's.an 82 game season, things even out. let me get to bed by 11:00 for chrissakes. 

When was the last time any game in the NHL ran past 10:30 pst? 
Had to be playoff overtime hockey and if someone’s unable to weather through that then that’s just too bad. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Barnstorm

[Goal_thecup]

3 hours ago, 24K said:

Maybe it is time to add a ref in the sky that can clearly see egregious missed calls that ref defenders say the refs can't see cause the game is too fast. 

That would be non other than, Ron MacLean, who thankfully, is always right because, wait for it, he is a Professional Referee.

 

Not only can he see what others cannot, but hear things or not hear things referees say to Alex Burrows, no matter what Burrows or the ref in question actually said.

 

Here's Ronnie calling us out for interference, and we're not even on the ice; he's that good:

[Barnstorm]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Old wild games? Coyotes?  

Admittedly,  I’m reasonably selective in what games I invest my time in . 

[Gawdzukes]

46 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

100%.

 

People saying "in the nba..." "in the NFL..." 

 

Hockey is simply not like other games. They simply are not comparables and what works elsewhere does not neccessarily onclude it will work in hockey. By all accounts, just based on how the game functions it be would be impossible to assume it would.

 

I mean unless we want games with zero hitting, zero battles, zero stick work at all because anything could be subjectively viewed as breaking the rules and overturn goals. 100% by the rulebook? What a miserable boring game that would be. The game would end 0-0 or 1-0 most nights lol.

 

That's not a game anybody is going to want to watch.

 

Not to mention the less authority the war room in Toronto has on the outcome of games the better... whether last night would have worked in the Canucks favour or not.  Fuck all that.

 

Absolutely. Like you said in the NFL there are multiple holds every single play. In hockey defenders are constantly taking one hand off the stick and holding the attacker. They are forever using slight slashes, finishing their checks,  and running minimal interference here and there. A referee will develop a repertoire with every single player and tell them whether or not they are cheating too much. Often it's impossible to know what has transpired between the player and referee during the game but sometimes it can be viewed kind of like the bonus in basketball. The ref will keep a tally of how far over the line a player is playing and then let them know, "next time you take your hand off your stick in the slot you're getting a penalty", or something to that affect. It can make some calls look one-sided from the outside.

 

This 'game-management" situation allows there to be some flexibility in the game and keeps it interesting. It allows players to be aggressive and push the envelope without throwing the rulebook away completely. You said it perfectly, no one is going to want to watch a game in which every conceivable penalty is called 100% by the book. It's the subjectivity of the referee that keeps the game flowing and entertaining, and hopefully fair. However, as we can see that the last notion gets challenged often. Like a 3rd pairing defender the best refs are the ones you don't notice.

 

Unfortunately I don't think you're ever going to develop the current system to make it that much "better", or "fairer", then it already is. Perhaps adding in some umpires looking specifically at penalties behind the play, or giving up to the second input, could be adapted, but I don't think you should re-write the rulebook every time something like this happens. Like a couple of people mentioned the ref was looking right at the play so unless you start giving teams the right to challenge the refs interpretation and overrule it, what else can be done?

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, coolboarder said:

With the technology we have now, why couldn't they even buzz it in for too many men?  It is fairly easy to track and buzz it in and ref should wear the earpiece and use their judgment.  That is given them a better tool so that they do not miss too many men calls for other teams.  It should be a black and white type that go along with black and white call with over the glass penalty.  Rest of other penalties are very subjective and their visual interpretation are different from other ref on the same play.   

 

I don't know, the NHL certainly could start doing this. I think the NHL will just have to be dragged into it in a few years anyway. 

[coolboarder]

7 hours ago, Joe King said:

I think the refs are hesitant to call a penalty in overtime making it a 3 on 2.

I think any overtime goal should have a quick review. And if the goal is scored because of a light infraction it should be called back and the face off in the guilty teams end. But definitely call major infractions like boarding and head shots.

I agree.  A quick review should have been automatic but that should be only for last 15 seconds of a goal or allow a coach challenge for a missed penalty leading to a goal be allowed in regulation time.   There are four type of penalties that a coach can challenge: interference, tripping, hooking, and holding causing a turnover leading to a goal.  No PP awarded if they successfully challenged a goal.   That way, you still retain a human element that missed penalty call didn't result in a goal by dishing out a special teams type of challenges.

[-dlc-]

21 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

So that's acceptable? Needs no attention or review?

 

And if they "miss" things for one team (only) it really slants a game. They missed a few things that the Canucks were penalized for but the Rangers were not.

[-dlc-]

20 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Absolutely. Like you said in the NFL there are multiple holds every single play.

Generally if they impact the play they're called. Plus...you're talking about 11 players per team vs 5. More to watch and many making contact all at once. Hockey they're more spread out.

[tas]

21 minutes ago, Barnstorm said:

When was the last time any game in the NHL ran past 10:30 pst? 
Had to be playoff overtime hockey and if someone’s unable to weather through that then that’s just too bad. 

the universe doesn't revolve around PST. 

[Goal_thecup]

3 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

 

They showed a lot of mental toughness and resilience last night. 

 

Another power play goal would have really helped us last night ... so that would be a big takeaway if I was Tocchet.

Tocchet was ok having Garland and Beauvillier out on the power play, wasn't he?

Lots of pieces to the puzzle and bites to the elephant, eh what?

Garland 8 gp 1g 1a

Beauvillier 8 gp 0g 1a

 

[Canuckle]

4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Absolutely. Like you said in the NFL there are multiple holds every single play. In hockey defenders are constantly taking one hand off the stick and holding the attacker. They are forever using slight slashes, finishing their checks,  and running minimal interference here and there. A referee will develop a repertoire with every single player and tell them whether or not they are cheating too much. Often it's impossible to know what has transpired between the player and referee during the game but sometimes it can be viewed kind of like the bonus in basketball. The ref will keep a tally of how far over the line a player is playing and then let them know, "next time you take your hand off your stick in the slot you're getting a penalty", or something to that affect. It can make some calls look one-sided from the outside.

 

This 'game-management" situation allows there to be some flexibility in the game and keeps it interesting. It allows players to be aggressive and push the envelope without throwing the rulebook away completely. You said it perfectly, no one is going to want to watch a game in which every conceivable penalty is called 100% by the book. It's the subjectivity of the referee that keeps the game flowing and entertaining, and hopefully fair. However, as we can see that the last notion gets challenged often. Like a 3rd pairing defender the best refs are the ones you don't notice.

 

Unfortunately I don't think you're ever going to develop the current system to make it that much "better", or "fairer", then it already is. Perhaps adding in some umpires looking specifically at penalties behind the play, or giving up to the second input, could be adapted, but I don't think you should re-write the rulebook every time something like this happens. Like a couple of people mentioned the ref was looking right at the play so unless you start giving teams the right to challenge the refs interpretation and overrule it, what else can be done?

 

And that's what I mean about opening a can of worms. What's called and what's not, what's unseen/missed, what's seen and ignored-- it's already extremely subjective. And that's without even addressing the things you mentioned above in terms of the metaethics and dynamics of the  individual game in question.

 

NHL hockey is simply a game played in the grey, imo. And while we might want to think in black and white terms with black and white results to get some desired outcome, it's simply an unrealistic expectation due to the way the game is played itself. And this would still be true whether we have additional reviews or not.  That's what I see anyway.

[Barnstorm]

11 minutes ago, tas said:

the universe doesn't revolve around PST. 

If you are watching outside of your own time zone then that’s up to you. Canuck home games absolutely revolve around pst and that’s the topic.