Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 43 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: All games in the EIHL have been suspended indefinitely... A lot of teams that played at the weekend down to the kids leagues all expressed concerns about playing so soon after. Some took votes to see if the players wanted to play knowing they could be fined or forfeited the game. Right call. Get everyone to take some time to process. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Rrodja said: First time posting but been following the old and new boards for some time. I have lived in Sheffield for the past 21 years and have frequently been to see the Steelers play - especially against the Panthers. I only missed this game due to a friend's birthday party. Luckily my kids missed it too. It has taken me a while before I've been able to post anything. This has hit the local community hard. There's a lot of disbelief that this could happen in our barn. First and foremost thoughts and prayers are with AJs family, friends and team mates. Thoughts are also with all those who were there. Hockey here is very much a family thing. Especially games against the Panthers. Kids usually makeup a quarter to a third of the 8000 plus fans on a Saturday night. This isn't full bush league in terms of support. It is hockey played in front of enthusiastic crowds with professional teams and staff. Two of the best funded teams in the U.K. What was amazing was the reaction of the trainer's and doctors as well as the trauma nurses and doctors who were there as fans who ran straight down from the stands. Northern General hospital isn't far from the arena too so he was in the best hands possible. The hospital is one of the best in the region serving the 575,000 people who live in Sheffield but also the majority of the 1.4 million people in South Yorkshire as a main emergency hub. To put some things into perspective if I can, although I'm not sure if I will given my mental state: Matt Petgrave - can't imagine how he is feeling. I can't see how he will ever play again, and I hope he has good people around him supporting him. I appreciate it was reckless/or an extremely unfortunate accident however you see it... but no-one would intentionally want to put a skate in someone's throat. Yes the police are investigating it but that is standard procedure. They have not as yet escalated it to a manslaughter or murder inquiry that I'm aware of. They are simply doing their due diligence to assess if this should be upgraded, and to make sure insurances can be filled properly (and to cover themselves if they get sued). There may also be a case whereby the league or team are negligent and could be dragged in. Again that is unlikely but is still a possibility under our health and safety at work regulations. There has been right wing extremist threats to Matt in this country - not thousands - but enough. And from known sources. But they are largely dealt with swiftly. I use the word extremist to highlight those who have overtly used race to target Matt. This is not those who think it may constitute manslaughter due to his actions. Matt has been a hard nosed player for Steelers - so yes he has a long disciplinary records. He could definitely hold his tongue more. But Steelers lacked any sort of physicality or pushback last year. He took a lot of that on himself. This is not to excuse him. Just a bit of context I hope. In terms of any history or anything between the two players in the match - Steelers Vs Panthers is a local derby where emotions always run high. I went to the preseason game between the 2 in Sheffield with my 7 year old - again a packed arena. There were plenty of hits, and fights. But nothing personal between the teams. I should imagine the same on Saturday night - and I've not been told any differently by those who were there. Nothing out of the ordinary. I'm certainly not going to sit watching and rewatching the video. I simply can't. I know of people who had severe anxiety and panic attacks whilst leaving the arena. It is a deeply disturbing event and feels far to close to home. I'd like to steer my part of the conversation to those who will read this and need to talk. There is plenty of support around and a lot has been set up immediately following Saturday's game. What I hope is that the people in attendance on Saturday will be able to return to the rink, that the players that were there are able to play again, and that the kids in attendance still love the game and want to play. R.I.P AJ. Peace to you all I hope you and the hockey community in England are doing okay. The spotlight is on you and not ina good way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) This is probably already known to beer leaguers, but a teenager died of a similar injury last year. Teddy Balkind took a skate to the neck and died from his injuries. Connecticut immediately mandated neck guards for everyone. Im surprised we haven't seen anything from USA Hockey or Hockey Canada yet. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2022/01/07/hs-hockey-player-teddy-balkind-died-after-ice-skate-sliced-neck/amp/ Edited October 31, 2023 by Miss Korea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 5 minutes ago, Miss Korea said: I hope you and the hockey community in England are doing okay. The spotlight is on you and not ina good way. Thankyou. The UK teams are all rallying around each other. If nothing else it's shown the community is a family. We're proud of our hockey, and that it was slowly building (never going to be massive but at least becoming slightly more competitive). Hopefully after whatever time people need they will come back to the rink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Rrodja said: A lot of teams that played at the weekend down to the kids leagues all expressed concerns about playing so soon after. Some took votes to see if the players wanted to play knowing they could be fined or forfeited the game. Right call. Get everyone to take some time to process. I think the weekend games are still on as it stands? The EIHL have decided to give teams the time to put together a fitting tribute which will be agreed with AJs family first according to their website and Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Eh Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 12 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Like that is not even a hockey play. So, what the fuck was he thinking? How many times have you seen a hockey player try to slow another player down by side kicking them? I would love to know if there is video of that game. What was the interaction between the two players. Something must have led up to that incident. Even McSorley had issues with Brashear during the game before chopping him down with his stick like an axe. I am sure the police must be looking at the video of the whole game to find intent... That wasn't intentional, There was just a fly just above Brashear's head that he was trying to swat. Thats what people defending hockey Bruce Lee sound like to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/hockey-horror-sean-avery-says-player-wasnt-thinking-of-murdering-somebody-today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12692867/adam-johnson-killed-ice-hockey-player-boot-blade-prosecution-unlikely-legal-expert.html The mail isn't a great newspaper but at least it outlines the UK legal position as it stands. The investigation will be looking into these points to see if it was a criminal act. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Bits relating to law are... Uiversity legal professor Nicola Lacey said it would be 'very unlikely' for Petgrave to be charged with manslaughter by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). As fans of both teams plan to hold vigils in Nottingham and Sheffield on Saturday Ms Lacey, a professor at the London School of Economics, told Newsweek: 'From what I have read on the news, it seems very unlikely the CPS would prosecute. For manslaughter you need either gross negligence - a really large departure from normal standards of care such as to justify criminal liability; or an unlawful and dangerous act - the latter only likely if for example there had been a pretty flagrant breach of the sport's rules. If it was really a 'freak accident,' neither of those tests would be met; and the CPS can only prosecute where there is a realistic chance of conviction.' Her LSE colleague Jeremy Horder added that injuries 'caused in the course of an ordinary lawful sporting contest' are within the definition of 'ordinary contact'. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67264536 And this is the type of reporting that is becoming more prevalent and circulating in the UK. It'll be a while before the 'is hockey safe' stuff goes away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 I'm aware that there are already plenty of opinions on this, but as someone who has played well over 1000 games (up to the level of Junior) I think the only person who knows whether that was intentional is Petgrave himself. It definitely looks like he's trying to use his leg to impede Johnson, but I can think of a half dozen or so times where I've lost control at top speed, sometimes due to contact with an opponent, sometimes due to an attempt to avoid contact with an opponent and sometimes because of something as simple as a rut in the ice. I have a scar under my chin, which was the result of chasing a player on a breakaway, who, in an attempt to outskate me, toe picked and caught me with the back of his skate blade. One thing I will say in Petgrave's defense, (and this is purely anecdotal) as a player who started in the 60's, it was always drilled into us that you never use your skate as anything besides what it was intended for. The idea that a player of that caliber would deliberately use his skate as a means to "slow down" an opponent is difficult to believe. Not impossible, I'll grant....but still, hard for me to believe.... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Canucks' DeSmith, Lafferty mourn loss of former teammate Adam Johnson https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/canucks-desmith-lafferty-mourn-loss-of-former-teammate-adam-johnson/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 3 hours ago, Rrodja said: https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/hockey-horror-sean-avery-says-player-wasnt-thinking-of-murdering-somebody-today Avery said the kick was intentional but murder was not on the 31-year-old Sheffield Steelers’ player’s mind. Avery responded: “That’s a pretty dangerous word to be throwing around. I’ve watched it, it’s terrible, it’s tough to watch. Did this kid make a move that was very unorthodox? Do I think he was trying to make contact of some sort? Absolutely.” “I saw the hit … I saw the leg move. It shouldn’t have been where it was. It’s terrible. I can’t even watch the video back,” Avery said. Even Sean Avery admits the kick was intentional. Petgrave may not have been looking to murder Johnson, however he WAS looking to kick him with his skate and possibly hurt him. That is at the very MINIMUM involuntary manslaughter. I hope the cops do their due diligence and arrest this guy. Let him go through the court process like McSorley had to. And I hope Johnson’s family sues everyone involved into oblivion. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 https://theathletic.com/5014881/2023/10/30/clint-malarchuk-adam-johnson-death/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 32 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Avery said the kick was intentional but murder was not on the 31-year-old Sheffield Steelers’ player’s mind. Avery responded: “That’s a pretty dangerous word to be throwing around. I’ve watched it, it’s terrible, it’s tough to watch. Did this kid make a move that was very unorthodox? Do I think he was trying to make contact of some sort? Absolutely.” “I saw the hit … I saw the leg move. It shouldn’t have been where it was. It’s terrible. I can’t even watch the video back,” Avery said. Even Sean Avery admits the kick was intentional. Petgrave may not have been looking to murder Johnson, however he WAS looking to kick him with his skate and possibly hurt him. That is at the very MINIMUM involuntary manslaughter. I hope the cops do their due diligence and arrest this guy. Let him go through the court process like McSorley had to. And I hope Johnson’s family sues everyone involved into oblivion. And I suspect Sean may be right given the recent coverage. The difficulty will be proving it's an intentional kick at Johnson and which part (just playing devil's advocate). Intention is a really tricky thing to prove especially if there is doubt it could have been a knee jerk reaction. Either way this won't go a way for a while and hopefully the police can find enough evidence that's clear and concise to support their decision however that lands. For now though it's still just an inquiry. The problem we have in the UK is that it was in a sporting arena not on a street corner. That changes culpability. But we have the Health and Safety Executive who can prosecute under the health and safety at work act including corporate manslaughter, and manslaughter at various levels. They are also investigating. I'm truth my take on Sean Avery's note was that Petgrave extended his leg towards Johnson and that he never meant to connect with his neck. Intention to do something but what is unclear. And that's where it could slide down the scale. These are all technical points for investigators and far better trained people than me. But we will see. There's no point second guessing the police. They'll have far more evidence to go through than us. And South Yorkshire police are big with lots at their disposal. And reformed massively since the Hillsborough disaster (although pilots of their helicopter got done for spying on people having sex) I'm not sure what I think to be honest. It's still really hard to take. And I think the fans who were there and the local area are hoping this does turn out to be a tragic accident as we're all still going through the disbelief stage of grief. I think a vast number have moved into the anger phase. But we all need to take a breath and let the police do their job. And raise one to AJ. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 17 minutes ago, Rrodja said: And I suspect Sean may be right given the recent coverage. The difficulty will be proving it's an intentional kick at Johnson and which part (just playing devil's advocate). Intention is a really tricky thing to prove especially if there is doubt it could have been a knee jerk reaction. Either way this won't go a way for a while and hopefully the police can find enough evidence that's clear and concise to support their decision however that lands. For now though it's still just an inquiry. The problem we have in the UK is that it was in a sporting arena not on a street corner. That changes culpability. But we have the Health and Safety Executive who can prosecute under the health and safety at work act including corporate manslaughter, and manslaughter at various levels. They are also investigating. I'm truth my take on Sean Avery's note was that Petgrave extended his leg towards Johnson and that he never meant to connect with his neck. Intention to do something but what is unclear. And that's where it could slide down the scale. These are all technical points for investigators and far better trained people than me. But we will see. There's no point second guessing the police. They'll have far more evidence to go through than us. And South Yorkshire police are big with lots at their disposal. And reformed massively since the Hillsborough disaster (although pilots of their helicopter got done for spying on people having sex) I'm not sure what I think to be honest. It's still really hard to take. And I think the fans who were there and the local area are hoping this does turn out to be a tragic accident as we're all still going through the disbelief stage of grief. I think a vast number have moved into the anger phase. But we all need to take a breath and let the police do their job. And raise one to AJ. Thanks for posting this. Not sure how the law works in the UK, but in Canada we have what's called involuntary manslaughter... Involuntary manslaughter is a legal term that refers to the unintentional killing of a person while committing a crime, or acting in a reckless or negligent manner. This type of homicide is committed without malice or intent, even accidentally, and is considered a less serious crime than murder 12. As you can see by the definition, involuntary manslaughter does not involve "intention". It only needs a reckless act, even if it was accidental. If Sean Avery is correct, and Petgrave did indeed try to hit Johnson with his leg and his skate, then that should be enough to charge him with involuntary manslaughter. The whole premise being made right now in Petgrave's defense is that it was a freak accident and there was no intent to even hit him with his leg or skate. They are saying he lost his balance from hitting the player in front of him and the leg just all of a sudden swung out like a kung-fu kick and hit Johnson in the neck and that Petgrave basically had no control over his leg. I watched the slow motion replay over and over and Petgrave does not actually make contact with the other player's skate. He simply pushes him out of the way with his arm and lifts his left leg kung-fu style and also leaves his feet as the right foot is off the ground. He goes for the kick and if you watch the slow motion replay, he actually kicks him a second time with his skate while the leg is still in the air. It's actually unbelievable what he did. The part that makes me even more upset is that Petgrave was the only player on the ice who did not skate towards Johnson to see what had happened and to help. He literally skated away from him and all of the other players. Even Petgrave's teammates skated towards Johnson to try and help, one guy skated to the trainer to help him get to Johnson quickly. Petgrave was literally on the other side of the ice just staring at Johnson while he was bleeding to death. This is quite disturbing to me as a human being... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: Thanks for posting this. Not sure how the law works in the UK, but in Canada we have what's called involuntary manslaughter... Involuntary manslaughter is a legal term that refers to the unintentional killing of a person while committing a crime, or acting in a reckless or negligent manner. This type of homicide is committed without malice or intent, even accidentally, and is considered a less serious crime than murder 12. As you can see by the definition, involuntary manslaughter does not involve "intention". It only needs a reckless act, even if it was accidental. If Sean Avery is correct, and Petgrave did indeed try to hit Johnson with his leg and his skate, then that should be enough to charge him with involuntary manslaughter. The whole premise being made right now in Petgrave's defense is that it was a freak accident and there was no intent to even hit him with his leg or skate. They are saying he lost his balance from hitting the player in front of him and the leg just all of a sudden swung out like a kung-fu kick and hit Johnson in the neck and that Petgrave basically had no control over his leg. I watched the slow motion replay over and over and Petgrave does not actually make contact with the other player's skate. He simply pushes him out of the way with his arm and lifts his left leg kung-fu style and also leaves his feet as the right foot is off the ground. He goes for the kick and if you watch the slow motion replay, he actually kicks him a second time with his skate while the leg is still in the air. It's actually unbelievable what he did. The part that makes me even more upset is that Petgrave was the only player on the ice who did not skate towards Johnson to see what had happened and to help. He literally skated away from him and all of the other players. Even Petgrave's teammates skated towards Johnson to try and help, one guy skated to the trainer to help him get to Johnson quickly. Petgrave was literally on the other side of the ice just staring at Johnson while he was bleeding to death. This is quite disturbing to me as a human being... Understood and good to understand the Canadian definition of involuntary manslaughter. I don't think it's too different here. But with a factor that I believe needs Petgrave to have had the intent of targeting Johnsons neck or had altered his equipment in a way that makes them more dangerous. Its committing an unlawful act or being grossly negligent. And they don't necessarily apply in a sporting arena unless he was doing something extremely outside the realms of the sport - in other words putting the skates on his hands or something like that. It is still not infeasible that he is charged with involuntary manslaughter but several tests have to apply and be proven. Again the rules are somewhat altered in a sporting arena. My honest opinion is he will be found innocent of involuntary manslaughter here because the the tests aren't met but may fall to other laws about bodily harm or negligence in the work place. The CPS can't prosecute unless there is cast iron evidence that he was aiming with intent to strike his skate at his neck. But he will probably be sued in the civil courts or in the U.S.A. We're probably looking at this through the same lense but applying slightly different tests. That is my understanding of the law here - I could be wrong. But it detracts from the issue as these are technicallities from a legal stand point. I can't imagine what AJs family are going through. I can't imagine what all the commentary is doing to them too. I hope they are keeping away from it. I can't imagine what the other players are going through. This will take time to heal and we all need to let it run its course. But it sickens me to the core. Skate injuries are just so inherently gut wrenching. They evoke the worst most visceral reactions as they are incredibly upsetting. It's our, or at least mine, worst fears realised. My understanding from people there - admittedly I can't watch the video as I'm not mentally able to so take it for what it's worth - is that Petgrave was in a state of shock and visible shaken. He couldn't think after it happened. Dowd is the Steelers captain for a reason. He has the ability to process everything few others can. Again though this looks different in person to film I'm sure. Even if the minds eye is trying to find a way to cope with something so tragic. So I should imagine the truth lies somewhere in the middle. A most likely avoidable accident normally that 8000 witnessed and whatever the law decides, one person will have to live with the guilt for the rest of their life. Again, well now anyway as it's nearly 9pm, I'm on the single malt after our wee two have gone to bed and am raising another to AJ. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4petesake Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 A comment from one of Adam’s teammates Victor Bjorkung on the incident and the hate that Petgrave has been getting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Another teammate of AJs commenting https://news.sky.com/story/adam-johnson-teammate-of-ice-hockey-player-killed-in-freak-accident-hits-out-at-terrible-abuse-of-opposition-player-12997392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 As well as confirmation the police see the investigation taking some time to resolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nhl/article-12697557/NHL-Trent-McCleary-survived-flashbacks-Adam-Johnson.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rrodja Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/american-sports/adam-johnson-ice-hockey-family-31330989 Family asking that the inquiry is full and wide ranging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Sparkle Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 hockey is a dangerous sport. who knew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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