[UPDATE] Man arrested under suspicion of manslaughter (RIP - Adam Johnson passes away following horrific skate injury)

[Jess]

18 minutes ago, Rrodja said:

For this to be murder he'd have had to have planned his move and had some motive for doing so in advance of the game.

 

The problem is the term manslaughter covers a multitude of offences at that's the case here in the U.K. It can be just one tiny step up from a freak accident. 

 

The ridiculous accounts from far right groups in the U.K. and North America from a very small group of people are utterly horrible and Yes MP has been a victim of hate.

 

Wouldn't that only be 1st degree murder? I'm not a lawyer, but I thought only 1st degree murder was premeditated and planned, but 2nd or especially 3rd degree murder could've been more in the moment.

[112]

2 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

 

Wouldn't that only be 1st degree murder? I'm not a lawyer, but I thought only 1st degree murder was premeditated and planned, but 2nd or especially 3rd degree murder could've been more in the moment.

 

3rd degree murder is manslaughter.

[Curmudgeon]

Whatever charge is or isn't laid, I believe the whole thing rests on intent. Was it Petgrave's intent to slash Johnson's throat? Absolutely not. Was it Petgrave's intent to kick Johnson to slow him down, I believe the video shows that he clearly did. So, as someone else posted, involuntary manslaughter can result from an accident causing death, whether intentional or not. And to whomever claimed that Petgrave is also a victim here, give your frickin' head a shake. The victim won't wake up tomorrow, but Petgrave will.

[Inkidu]

51 minutes ago, Grandmaster said:

This is ridiculous. There is no way he purposefully was trying to kick the guy in the neck. Every hockey player knows what a skate to the neck can do. This was a pure accident. Not manslaughter.

 

If you had to charge him with anything, it should be a lessor charge such as criminal negligence causing death. Where he ought to have known better and was reckless in his actions. 
 

This was not manslaughter. Not even close. There was no intent to cause harm. 

 

This is manslaughter isn't it?

[Rrodja]

15 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

 

Wouldn't that only be 1st degree murder? I'm not a lawyer, but I thought only 1st degree murder was premeditated and planned, but 2nd or especially 3rd degree murder could've been more in the moment.

In the UK that would be voluntary manslaughter which needs intent to wind or grievously harm. Involuntary manslaughter is the next level down and has to be gross negligence or an unlawful act but with no intention. There's a very thin line between the bottom end and an accident.

 

The main issue is first to confirm it's an unlawful death which is far too complex for my mind.

[Rrodja]

Just now, Rrodja said:

In the UK that would be voluntary manslaughter which needs intent to wind or grievously harm. Involuntary manslaughter is the next level down and has to be gross negligence or an unlawful act but with no intention. There's a very thin line between the bottom end and an accident.

 

The main issue is first to confirm it's an unlawful death which is far too complex for my mind.

Sorry it's late here in the U.K. and my 3 year old has exhausted me with her snottyness. My Dyslexia is showing strongly. I need a new brain.

[Gurn]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Why are these clowns in England giving Matt Petgrave a standing ovation?  Are these people sick?

Why did the fans support Todd Bertuzzi after he broke Moore's neck?

 

Probably because fans are fans?

ps fan is short for 

fanatic

fa·nat·ic

[fəˈnadik]

 

NOUN

1. a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause:

Edited November 14, 2023 by Gurn

[Rrodja]

12 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

 

This is manslaughter isn't it?

The definition hinges on whether it is an unlawful death. That is the really difficult bit to prove and the term almost feels like an oxymoron.

 

Very very simply and in no way wholly applicable... It's the difference between someone instantly turning to look at their phone which just beeped when driving (committing and unlawfully act) and hitting someone who steps out into the road, or driving lawfully and hitting someone who steps out in the road.

 

So it will hinge on Matt's leg movement, and they have enough to go on. The arrest now means Matt will be interviewed under caution.

 

As others have said... Slim chance it could also be some one else like a kit man who put illegal blades on his skates... which would make it an unlawful death.

[Rrodja]

30 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Whatever charge is or isn't laid, I believe the whole thing rests on intent. Was it Petgrave's intent to slash Johnson's throat? Absolutely not. Was it Petgrave's intent to kick Johnson to slow him down, I believe the video shows that he clearly did. So, as someone else posted, involuntary manslaughter can result from an accident causing death, whether intentional or not. And to whomever claimed that Petgrave is also a victim here, give your frickin' head a shake. The victim won't wake up tomorrow, but Petgrave will.

Intent is hard to prove, but I can't see someone willfully (planned or not) putting a skate in someone's throat. Especially Infront of 8000 people, the media etc.

 

The difficulty is also proving that it was an unlawful act that caused an unlawful death (really bizarre language I know). I'm not saying it wasn't. Clearly the arrest for suspicion of manslaughter shows the police have cause to think it was - unless it is someone else involved...

 

I do understand where you're coming from re. victim. But you can be guilty of something and still be a victim too. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Maybe.  It would depend on a bunch of things.

 

But you're jumping ahead here.  No way this turns into a murder charge.

I thought you were a lawyer. Manslaughter is technically a murder charge. 

[Iron Man]

Not sure what the laws in England are re: manslaughter, but if it's similar to what we have in Canada (and we're both commonwealth countries and a lot of our laws derive from England), then what is required for manslaughter is an unlawful act or criminal negligence in which bodily harm is objectively foreseeable, and death results. No intent to kill is required, otherwise that would be murder.

 

I haven't seen the video (nor do I want to), but whether this is prosecutable will hinge on whether the Crown can prove the other player intended to kick his skate at Adam (which is an intentional application of force and thus an unlawful act since it's outside the boundaries of the rules of hockey) OR was criminally negligent in doing so which is a standard lesser than intention, namely a marked departure from the standard of care of a reasonable person in the circumstances.

 

Alternatively, if not manslaughter, this could be criminal negligence causing death which is a lesser included offence (not sure if England has this).

[Rubik]

1 hour ago, Grandmaster said:

This was not manslaughter. Not even close. There was no intent to cause harm. 

 

 

 

reading up on it, I think this case falls under constructive manslaughter

Edited November 15, 2023 by Rubik

[Elias Pettersson]

29 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Why did the fans support Todd Bertuzzi after he broke Moore's neck?

 

Probably because fans are fans?

ps fan is short for 

fanatic

fa·nat·ic

[fəˈnadik]

 

NOUN

1. a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause:

Did Todd Bertuzzi get a standing ovation in the next game? 

[Cerridwen]

37 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Why did the fans support Todd Bertuzzi after he broke Moore's neck?

 

Probably because fans are fans?

ps fan is short for 

fanatic

fa·nat·ic

[fəˈnadik]

 

NOUN

1. a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause:

 

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Did Todd Bertuzzi get a standing ovation in the next game? 

 

Hoooo-boy..... never saw this thread going THERE.

[Miss Korea]

57 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I thought you were a lawyer. Manslaughter is technically a murder charge. 

 

That's the old me.  The new me is beauty pageant winner!

 

47 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Did Todd Bertuzzi get a standing ovation in the next game? 

 

I remember him having a lot of support from Canucks fans after the punch.  If that counts.

[PeteyBOI]

2 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

Whatever charge is or isn't laid, I believe the whole thing rests on intent. Was it Petgrave's intent to slash Johnson's throat? Absolutely not. Was it Petgrave's intent to kick Johnson to slow him down, I believe the video shows that he clearly did. So, as someone else posted, involuntary manslaughter can result from an accident causing death, whether intentional or not. And to whomever claimed that Petgrave is also a victim here, give your frickin' head a shake. The victim won't wake up tomorrow, but Petgrave will.

petgraves family will be a victim too... this is something that will effect the family for the rest of their lives too... it's a sad story for everyone involved...

[Slegr]

Matt Petgrave was the guy who was charged. Isn’t he a former Abbottsford Canuck?

[4petesake]

1 minute ago, Slegr said:

Matt Petgrave was the guy who was charged. Isn’t he a former Abbottsford Canuck?

Didn’t ever play in Abby but he did play for the Comets in Utica when it was the Canucks farm team.

[Alflives]

Won’t watch the video so hard to comment. But if the police have arrested the guy then it’s highly likely there’s solid grounds. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

3 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

The new me is beauty pageant winner!

 

 

[Sabrefan1]

15 hours ago, Alflives said:

Won’t watch the video so hard to comment. But if the police have arrested the guy then it’s highly likely there’s solid grounds. 

 

There's no doubt in my mind that the second kick is what clinched it.  That demonstrates intent.  I guarantee he was trying to kick him in the chest to slow him down, but he should have known better.  A careless action that caused someone to pass away.

[5forFighting]

Why can't they say Matt Petgrave was arrested? 

[Rrodja]

32 minutes ago, 5forFighting said:

Why can't they say Matt Petgrave was arrested? 

Due process. Very common. Especially for high profile cases (although it's back page stuff for the papers here). In some cases extreme public pressure can cause a defence to argue undue bias and lack of a fair trial. Plus it's just an arrest as it stands (but the direction of travel is clear - they'll likely charge today or tomorrow and then send to the CBS).

[Rrodja]

1 hour ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

There's no doubt in my mind that the second kick is what clinched it.  That demonstrates intent.  I guarantee he was trying to kick him in the chest to slow him down, but he should have known better.  A careless action that caused someone to pass away.

This is the problem in that intent is a very broad stroke. We can't just assume intent to kick someone constitutes manslaughter within U.K. law.

 

I'm sure what your saying is correct but intent to kick the chest is far far different than intent to slash the neck. Intent to kick the chest but connecting with the neck is still an accident (Reckless) but that can sit within manslaughter as well as outside depending upon context and other players actions (if AJ was falling into the skate let's say....apologies just setting it out I'm not advocating that).

 

This is the general downer for me (and I'm trying to just be a conduit from the U.K. forwarding on stuff, especially living in Sheffield and having been to many Steelers games) is that an accident can be manslaughter but people are treating this as either murder or a full mishap. It's neither given that someone has the arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. But that still means people can feel sorry for MP but also angry at him. That is the nature of the incident. But either way it won't bring back AJ

 

Intent is not the only measure especially if it is not to cause grievous bodily harm. It has to be an unlawful death. The action is outside the norm for hockey and breaks the agreed rules so likely sits within that. But it is hard to argue with the context of a contact sport. An injury within sport is normal and not considered. But the action being outside the norm is.

 

Apologies that's flip flopping. Just trying to set some context - in that there will be a lot of arguments each way and it'll take a while in court to sort out I suspect. But I'm frequently wrong (according to my kids).

 

It is a really complex situation legally (note legally) and I'm glad everything is taking time and being they are being thorough.

 

In any case, raising another single malt to AJ, and hopeful the next time I go to Steelers game with my 3 and 7 year olds I can enjoy it with the other 8000 people than sit panicking.

[Rrodja]

21 hours ago, Rubik said:

 

 

 

reading up on it, I think this case falls under constructive manslaughter

Apologies, do you mean involuntary manslaughter???

 

The outside stuff is also interesting as the corner has issued a prevention of further death report in which within law in the UK the recipient has a certain amount of time to reply - specifically on neck guards. Such reports can lead to the league and governing bodies being subjected to legal action as they did not do enough to prevent injury.