[UPDATE] Man arrested under suspicion of manslaughter (RIP - Adam Johnson passes away following horrific skate injury)

[Rrodja]

21 hours ago, Iron Man said:

Not sure what the laws in England are re: manslaughter, but if it's similar to what we have in Canada (and we're both commonwealth countries and a lot of our laws derive from England), then what is required for manslaughter is an unlawful act or criminal negligence in which bodily harm is objectively foreseeable, and death results. No intent to kill is required, otherwise that would be murder.

 

I haven't seen the video (nor do I want to), but whether this is prosecutable will hinge on whether the Crown can prove the other player intended to kick his skate at Adam (which is an intentional application of force and thus an unlawful act since it's outside the boundaries of the rules of hockey) OR was criminally negligent in doing so which is a standard lesser than intention, namely a marked departure from the standard of care of a reasonable person in the circumstances.

 

Alternatively, if not manslaughter, this could be criminal negligence causing death which is a lesser included offence (not sure if England has this).

This is similar to UK law. But a complicating factor is that it is with a sport arena and that the sport is contact. Injury's are expected 

 

Apologies this is just technical, but for example it is not unreasonable for a skate to be worn or for a skate to be around neck height. But a kicking motion is unreasonable. 

[5forFighting]

50 minutes ago, Rrodja said:

Due process. Very common. Especially for high profile cases (although it's back page stuff for the papers here). In some cases extreme public pressure can cause a defence to argue undue bias and lack of a fair trial. Plus it's just an arrest as it stands (but the direction of travel is clear - they'll likely charge today or tomorrow and then send to the CBS).

I don't believe its due process, unless there was another party other than Matt that was involved. 

[Rrodja]

Just now, 5forFighting said:

I don't believe its due process, unless there was another party other than Matt that was involved. 

I just mean they don't commonly name. Not that it isn't Matt. More common process. Apologies.

[Rrodja]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:28 PM, Elias Pettersson said:

 

NEW: Hockey player Matt Petgrave is given a standing ovation by his team's fans after he slashed the throat of Adam Johnson who later died As the match began, a photo of Petgrave, who was not present, appeared on the screen which prompted the standing ovation. Johnson's family is livid with the death, as they put the blame on Petgrave for the fatal kick. "It was very reckless. I just want them [police] to get it right. We are looking for justice for Adam," said the aunt, Kari Johnson after the incident. "You don't take your leg and kick somebody and cut their throat. I'm sorry." "He took our boy. There are a few of us in the family that think it was a totally unnecessary, very, very bad action to take." Kari Johnson also spoke out about how Johnson's parents are dealing with the incident. "As far as his dad, my brother, he's just been a mess. Along with Adam's grandma and Adam's brother and myself." "I would have to say his mother has probably been the strongest of us. But I don't know deep down inside if she's in shock or crying when she's alone. She's just been very strong."

This is a a little out of date. I have no doubt the family are struggling. I can't imagine what they are going through. But the latest from his aunt which came out after the arrest was:

 

'Reacting to news of an arrest from her home in Kelly Lake, Minnesota, Adam’s aunt Kari Johnson said: “We’re just going to have to let it play out and see what happens. Whatever they’d decided, I would have had to live with it. But I’m just glad they are being diligent with doing what they’re supposed to be doing.”'

 

This was posted earlier in the feed.

 

I've tried to look into the ovation stuff (living in Sheffield). Many are confused about the coverage. They are supporting MP but not in support of his actions. If that makes sense. Hard to get I know but it is a difference.

[Sabrefan1]

37 minutes ago, Rrodja said:

This is the problem in that intent is a very broad stroke. We can't just assume intent to kick someone constitutes manslaughter within U.K. law.

 

I'm sure what your saying is correct but intent to kick the chest is far far different than intent to slash the neck. Intent to kick the chest but connecting with the neck is still an accident (Reckless) but that can sit within manslaughter as well as outside depending upon context and other players actions (if AJ was falling into the skate let's say....apologies just setting it out I'm not advocating that).

 

This is the general downer for me (and I'm trying to just be a conduit from the U.K. forwarding on stuff, especially living in Sheffield and having been to many Steelers games) is that an accident can be manslaughter but people are treating this as either murder or a full mishap. It's neither given that someone has the arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. But that still means people can feel sorry for MP but also angry at him. That is the nature of the incident. But either way it won't bring back AJ

 

Intent is not the only measure especially if it is not to cause grievous bodily harm. It has to be an unlawful death. The action is outside the norm for hockey and breaks the agreed rules so likely sits within that. But it is hard to argue with the context of a contact sport. An injury within sport is normal and not considered. But the action being outside the norm is.

 

Apologies that's flip flopping. Just trying to set some context - in that there will be a lot of arguments each way and it'll take a while in court to sort out I suspect. But I'm frequently wrong (according to my kids).

 

It is a really complex situation legally (note legally) and I'm glad everything is taking time and being they are being thorough.

 

In any case, raising another single malt to AJ, and hopeful the next time I go to Steelers game with my 3 and 7 year olds I can enjoy it with the other 8000 people than sit panicking.

 

 

I'm also glad they are being thorough, but as far as I'm concerned he was criminally negligent in his actions.  That said, he shouldn't spend any more than 2-3 years in prison for it if he is convicted.  His intent during the incident was to kick him to slow him down from gaining possession of the puck, and not to kick him to kill him.

[Rrodja]

13 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

 

I'm also glad they are being thorough, but as far as I'm concerned he was criminally negligent in his actions.  That said, he shouldn't spend any more than 2-3 years in prison for it if he is convicted.  His intent during the incident was to kick him to slow him down from gaining possession of the puck, and not to kick him to kill him.

I'm not in any way denying that. I think the arrest shows there is enough evidence for there to be a suspicion of an unlawful death through either gross negligence or an unlawful act (both have to be demonstrably outside of the rules and normal behaviour within hockey - which as you note his kick is).

 

Involuntary manslaughter can result in suspended sentence of more than 1 year but equal could be in prison for up to 18 years. That's the extremes within the law and the representative of the ambiguities and differences within it.

 

I hope they just get it done and over with and we don't have a protracted period of expert witnesses arguing with each other over minutiae.

[Rrodja]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/ice-hockey/67433939

 

This is good news. That Nottingham are feeling more ready to return to hockey.

[Rrodja]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/24747449/nhl-gulhe-avoids-injury-skate-blade/

 

Doing the rounds from a.... well a paper you hang on a peg in the outhouse

[The Arrogant Worms]

HEARTBREAKING: Late ex-NHLer Adam Johnson had bought engagement ring for girlfriend before death

 

https://canoe.com/sports/hockey/nhl/johnson-had-bought-engagement-ring-for-girlfriend-before-death/wcm/4a2ff4d8-0ecc-479e-ab0f-8bd4744ce059

[Sophomore Jinx]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:27 PM, Rrodja said:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/24747449/nhl-gulhe-avoids-injury-skate-blade/

 

Doing the rounds from a.... well a paper you hang on a peg in the outhouse

I stopped reading the shit article when I saw that the writer made the ridiculous statement --

"A post-mortem confirmed the American's cause of death as a neck injury".

[Rrodja]

https://twitter.com/PanthersIHC/status/1725554753403310330?t=x-WN5KBBGPSJIKeNubiXqg&s=19

 

Nottingham have been back training which is great to see. The memorial game will be streamed live via link in their twitter feed. 

[Rrodja]

 

[Rrodja]

 

 

Panthers have formally announced the retirement of number 47.

[Rrodja]

 

 

[CBH1926]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:23 PM, Grandmaster said:

This is ridiculous. There is no way he purposefully was trying to kick the guy in the neck. Every hockey player knows what a skate to the neck can do. This was a pure accident. Not manslaughter.

 

If you had to charge him with anything, it should be a lessor charge such as criminal negligence causing death. Where he ought to have known better and was reckless in his actions. 
 

This was not manslaughter. Not even close. There was no intent to cause harm. 

He didn’t intend to kill him but he willingly tried and succeeded in kicking him with his leg.

As a result of his action, player died, hence the reason for involuntary manslaughter.

Didn’t mean to kill him, but his action led to death, not that hard to understand.

[Grandmaster]

21 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

He didn’t intend to kill him but he willingly tried and succeeded in kicking him with his leg.

As a result of his action, player died, hence the reason for involuntary manslaughter.

Didn’t mean to kill him, but his action led to death, not that hard to understand.

Manslaughter in our country has different elements. This would be called criminal negligence causing death here. Also doubt he was intending to kick him with his skate. That’s a stretch. 
 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Grandmaster

[Rrodja]

 

 

[Gurn]

Now more than a month since this tragic death.

Wonder how many players actually started using neck guards, and how many still are.?

Has either the league or Player's Association confirmed/committed this will be part of off season talks or in the next CBA?

 

Yesterday's news sure goes by fast. And people forget just as quickly.

[canuck73_3]

18 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Now more than a month since this tragic death.

Wonder how many players actually started using neck guards, and how many still are.?

Has either the league or Player's Association confirmed/committed this will be part of off season talks or in the next CBA?

 

Yesterday's news sure goes by fast. And people forget just as quickly.

It will take time at the NHL Level to implement this Elliotte and Marek talked about this on 32 Thoughts and while it seems straight forward all of this has to go through a process with the NHLPA.