[Article] Eyes on the Isles claiming the Isles are the Winners of the trade for Bo Horvat

[Jess]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

How is it only a futures deal when we got  Hronek (with the first) we got for Bo? 
Hronek is an elite, right shot D. He’s 26. We win this trade easy. 
 

 

1 hour ago, JamesB said:

Yes, its early, but at this stage I think the trade is a big win for the Canucks. Horvat has 7 pts in 8 games and has a plus/minus of zero. But his underlying stats are not great.  In expected goals, Coris, High Danger chances and every other advanced stat he is on the negative side of the ledger.

 

Evolving hockey has him as about replacement level. He is dramatically overpaid for his contract. Hronek, on the other hand, is great in the advanced stats and is excellent value for his contract. And the Canucks have Raty as well.

 

 

 

Fair point about Hronek. He's not as much a future, though he is younger than Horvat. I don't consider the contract in the value unless you think Horvat was inevitably going to sign for that. I consider that a separate situation exclusively to Lamoriello and bad negotiating there and not as much to do with the trade. Even then though, the Islanders didn't trade us Hronek, they traded us a 1st that was part of what we used to get Hronek. If getting Hronek was such a good move, then that's on us shafting Yzerman, not the Islanders and Lou. To assess how the Islanders did in the trade, you have to assess the value of the 1st independent of what we then did with the pick later.

[Shekky]

I think really at the end of the day Horvat is overpaid and it will look badly in a few years, or it won't and he plays well enough right until the end of his contract who knows. I can't see him maintaining his current stats well into his 30s though.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

 

 

Fair point about Hronek. He's not as much a future, though he is younger than Horvat. I don't consider the contract in the value unless you think Horvat was inevitably going to sign for that. I consider that a separate situation exclusively to Lamoriello and bad negotiating there and not as much to do with the trade. Even then though, the Islanders didn't trade us Hronek, they traded us a 1st that was part of what we used to get Hronek. If getting Hronek was such a good move, then that's on us shafting Yzerman, not the Islanders and Lou. To assess how the Islanders did in the trade, you have to assess the value of the 1st independent of what we then did with the pick later.

Alf will always put our club first. To heck with Bo and the other clubs. 

[Snoop Hogg]

6 minutes ago, Shekky said:

I think really at the end of the day Horvat is overpaid and it will look badly in a few years, or it won't and he plays well enough right until the end of his contract who knows. I can't see him maintaining his current stats well into his 30s though.

He wasn’t going to keep up the stats he had here, unless he was moved to Pittsburgh or Edmonton maybe. 

[Drakrami]

I dont know about the Islanders, but Hronek is working well for us. Horvat + 2023 2nd round for Hronek, Beauvillier, Raty and 2023 4th round. I would do Horvat for Hronek right now if you asked me. So basically 2nd round for Beauvillier, Raty and 4th rounder. 

[VegasCanuck]

1 hour ago, Snoop Hogg said:

I disagree with you on the point that if Beauvilier washes out that he has trade value at the deadline. He needs to produce something to have some value. 

He's proven that he can produce, sometimes a fit isn't right. He needs to be playing further up in the lineup to really be effective. He's not a 3rd line grinder and I don't think anyone thinks he will really be successful in that position. We would be better to move him sooner than later if we can and bring up someone like Bains and let him have a shot at 3rd line.

[Hammertime]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

How is it only a futures deal when we got  Hronek (with the first) we got for Bo? 
Hronek is an elite, right shot D. He’s 26. We win this trade easy. 
 

Could it be Detroit are the winners with ASP putting up 6 goals through his first 14 games this year in the SHL at 18.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Hammertime said:

Could it be Detroit are the winners with ASP putting up 6 goals through his first 14 games this year in the SHL at 18.

From a trolls pov it could be. 

[JamesB]

6 hours ago, -AJ- said:

 

 

Fair point about Hronek. He's not as much a future, though he is younger than Horvat. I don't consider the contract in the value unless you think Horvat was inevitably going to sign for that. I consider that a separate situation exclusively to Lamoriello and bad negotiating there and not as much to do with the trade. Even then though, the Islanders didn't trade us Hronek, they traded us a 1st that was part of what we used to get Hronek. If getting Hronek was such a good move, then that's on us shafting Yzerman, not the Islanders and Lou. To assess how the Islanders did in the trade, you have to assess the value of the 1st independent of what we then did with the pick later.

Fair point about judging a trade. There were a lot of follow-on things that happened -- Horvat contract, trade for Hronek, maybe re-signing Hronek, what happens with Beauvillier and Raty, etc.

 

So if we just look at the pure trade: The Isles got Horvat on an expiring contract after he which he would be a UFA. The Canucks got a mid-range first round pick, Raty, and Beauvillier. I think the Canucks got the best of that trade as two months of Horvat is just a rental and does not have much value.  Of course, the trade is what allowed the Isles to sign Horvat long term (for a term that is too long at a cap hit that is too high) and it is what allowed the Canucks to bring in Hronek. If we add in those considerations, I think the trade looks even better for the Canucks. 

 

One question is simply "how good is Horvat". His counting stats always look better than his underlying stats (and his true value) because he is good on the PP and picks up a lot of PP points. That always inflates apparent value.

[DownUndaCanuck]

If you want to talk about that trade specifically then I'd say so. Raty hasn't done much yet but is obviously a long-term project. Beauvillier has been dreadful. The first we obviously flipped. Bo hasn't been at a PPG though so I certainly wouldn't say they won the trade.

[Bob Long]

We now have what looks to be an elite top d pair that can dominate their shifts and tilt games. Thats worth more than what Bo can do, or would have accomplished here. It's not bashing him it's just a fact 

 

As for the rest? The Ratu - ASP debate can be our future Forsling angst fodder. Or not.

 

[canuck73_3]

Both teams won this deal imo. Isles got their C and we got a legit RHD. 

[PhillipBlunt]

Based on everything that came out of this trade, the Canucks clearly won it. Hronek is more valuable to the team than Horvat was. 

Horvat's place on the Canucks has been amply filled and exceeded by Miller. Hronek is a near elite right hand #1 defenseman who is meshing beautifully with Hughes. 

 

The fact that the writer didn't factor that in makes his whole article less effective. 

[JeremyCuddles]

I mean, Hronek has more points and we've been desperate for a top 4 RHD for a long while. If we can't work out an extension. I'll give it to the Isles. But we got Hronek and we might even have a top 6 C in Raty. At the very least I think he has 3C potential. A 3C and a top 4 RHD for an overpaid top 6 center? If that's losing a trade, we should lose more trades. I am glad he's having a good start to the year though. I don't have any hard feelings, that passed after seeing Hronek bulked up over the offseason. And I still am very high on Raty. We needed a culture shift. They needed offence. Not every trade needs losers. We both walked away happy.

[JayDangles]

21 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

well if you are looking at the trade straight up from Islanders vs Canucks.. then yes the islander are the winner of the trade.. 

 

islander traded a 17th pick raty and what looks like a cap dump beauvillier as he's really doing nothing right now

 

canucks traded horvat

 

canucks won the trade for the 17th pick and something for hronek

 

so they are not wrong. islander won the trade with the canucks but the canucks used the asset to win the trade with detroit

 

if this was a 3 way deal then islander and canucks both win and detroit loses

 

but if looking at individual trade islander won the trade with the canucks who won the trade with detroit and turned it into a win.

Well hold on here... Horvats contract was going to expire at the end of the season... so technically we traded only 3 months of Bo Horvats playing for Raty, a 1st and Beau..

 

The Islanders signing Bo and his playing now has nothing to do with the trade because he wasn't signed by the Canucks for this year. Plus they are paying him over $8m. 

 

So I say again, we got Hronek, Raty and Beau and only gave up 3 months of Horvats play.

[27 Percent]

I don't think you can count hronek in the Horvat trade. They're two seperate deals. Overall yes I think it's a win. Hronek is playing great. A defenseman like that is hard to find.

 

So 1st for hronek is a clear win right now. 

 

Horvat for beauvillier 1st and raty I think is a loss.

 

I don't see Raty becoming anything more than a bottom 6 C that can't win faceoffs. Beauvillier was a cap dump. And the 1st was late.

 

I don't blame Alvin for the trade, the writing was on the wall when we signed Miller. 

[WillisD]

I think I like Hronek better than I ever did Horvat. I'm gonna say as long as we resign him, we win that trade

[tas]

even if hronek ends up the only serviceable piece, assuming the team locks him up long term, I'm perfectly happy with that. 

 

I liked bo, but it's pretty telling that really nobody was upset to see him go. 

[Dizzle]

 

23 hours ago, Barn Burner said:

Thing is, when Raty develops into a solid 2nd line C, we win the deal straight up. 

 

Im not saying he won’t… but I’d pump the brakes a bit on claiming Raty will be a 2c. 
 

I didn’t love the trade at the time… I’d make it again without question now. 

[Elias Pettersson]

You can’t decide who won a trade when some of the players involved aren’t even in the NHL yet. This article is so stupid. What if Raty becomes a 1C and 90 point player?  What if ASP becomes a #1 defencemnan?  
 

This trade can’t be evaluated for at least 3 more years. 
 

As for what Vancouver did, we basically traded Horvat for Hronek and also added Raty. Hronek looks like a legit top pairing RHD. BO was our 2C. I’ll take a top pairing RHD over a 2C any day. It’s a win for Vancouver just on that basis alone. 
 

Then we have the wildcard in Raty. Looks like he will be a 3C who could be a 2C tweener. Even if he is only a 3C that is a huge bonus in the deal. 
 

So a top pairing RHD plus a 3C for a 2C. The Canucks, from their perspective, easily win this trade. 

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, JayDangles said:

Well hold on here... Horvats contract was going to expire at the end of the season... so technically we traded only 3 months of Bo Horvats playing for Raty, a 1st and Beau..

 

The Islanders signing Bo and his playing now has nothing to do with the trade because he wasn't signed by the Canucks for this year. Plus they are paying him over $8m. 

 

So I say again, we got Hronek, Raty and Beau and only gave up 3 months of Horvats play.

ok then the trade is still a wash and slightly lean towards islanders we traded 3 months of horvat for a 17th raty and a cap dump. sure beau can play but who's going to take a chance at 4mil and see which beau shows up? 

 

islanders only goal was to make the playoff.. they were not in a playoff spot when the trade happen.. and shortly after they lost barzal and pageau.. everyone here is laughing coz they were expecting a lottery pick at the draft or a lottery pick the following season.. they made the playoff.. so no lottery pick there.. everyone was also laughing at islanders in re-signing bo coz they were guaranteed to regress and be a lottery team again this year.. they are 11th overall in point % 4 points back of the division lead with a game in hand.. it's early in the season of coz anything can happen same thing to be said about the canucks but both teams are playing well enough.

 

if bo signing have nothing to do with the canucks.. the hronek trade for the pick have nothing to do with the islanders?

[Barn Burner]

1 hour ago, Dizzle said:

 

Im not saying he won’t… but I’d pump the brakes a bit on claiming Raty will be a 2c. 
 

I didn’t love the trade at the time… I’d make it again without question now. 

I said "when" because, more than likely, he will end up at that level. 

 

And that's based on the fact that he is still only 20 and playing really well in Abby.

 

A couple more years with Colliton coaching, this kid's going to be a player.  

 

Which means, Hronek and Raty, plus anything we can get from Beau, (unless he walks) is a big win for us. 

 

The 1st we traded to Detroit has no bearing on the NYI trade, whatsoever. That's between the value of Hronek vs. the 1st, ASP.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Barn Burner

[Dizzle]

18 minutes ago, Barn Burner said:

I said "when" because, more than likely, he will end up at that level. 

 

And that's based on the fact that he is still only 20 and playing really well in Abby.

 

A couple more years with Colliton coaching, this kid's going to be a player.  

 

Which means, Hronek and Raty, plus anything we can get from Beau, (unless he walks) is a big win for us. 

 

The 1st we traded to Detroit has no bearing on the NYI trade, whatsoever. That's between the value of Hronek vs. the 1st, ASP.

Again…. I’m not saying he won’t. But it’s pretty early to say he will. 

[Brad Marchand]

Purely in terms of roster balance, I think trading Horvat made the most long-term sense for the team. He's more or less worth his current salary (give or take) but the Canucks would have struggled badly to fill the other holes on their roster had they signed him to that deal (no Cole, Soucy and certainly no Hronek). They'd essentially be a less extreme version of the Leafs where too much money is going to their top 3 forwards.

[Barn Burner]

6 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

Again…. I’m not saying he won’t. But it’s pretty early to say he will. 

Good for you. I'm a little more optimistic.