[Speculation] Flames Have Paused Contract Talks With Pending UFAs

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, 112 said:

You're never going to succeed in "[getting] people off drugs." You're not going to win the drug war.

The war on drugs is a pointless one considering how complicit so many are with allowing it to flow into major and minor metropolitan areas. That is true. 

1 hour ago, 112 said:

There are some people who will never get clean, and these people constitute a permanent market for illicit drugs.

Those people will also die prematurely because of the drugs, so it kind of cancels itself out in the end. Yet that market preys on those people and is always seeking new clientele as well. 

1 hour ago, 112 said:

Take away the prospect of withdrawal and a lot of people will immediately stop causing destruction.

The hard part is usually the one most who seek to deaden their minds would like to avoid. I think people who really want to live free of drugs would find a way to do so. 

1 hour ago, 112 said:

fwiw, alcoholics and people with cannabis use disorder should get free booze/herb depending on their financial situation imo.

Why? What does this serve? And does the subsidizing of this come from increased taxes to the average citizen who keeps their shit together on a constant basis, even though they’d love to nullify their nerves to all the insanity this world bombards them with? 

1 hour ago, 112 said:

e: there's also no quality of life inside a riverview-like institution. I don't want thousands of people living miserably just because the rest of society thinks they're undesirable.

Immediately assigning the idea of institutionalization with a mental hospital is a knee jerk response. Frontal lobotomies and electroshock therapy is a thing of the past and illegal. If (and I highly doubt it would ever happen) the entire facility of Riverview was restored and opened, it would be with a much more functional and compassionate approach being used for the residents. Some people are just very unwell and need the help of others to get to basic function. Somehow I think having that support is a little less miserable than sleeping behind a dumpster with shit in your pants and rats scurrying around you. 

1 hour ago, 112 said:

Only the criminally insane convicted of serious crimes should be locked up forever.

Well, this is Canada, so even the criminally insane are treated with compassion. 

1 hour ago, 112 said:

A lot of people don't get how the humane perspective is to acknowledge people enjoy life more on the streets than confined in a facility like that one.

Really? The humane perspective is to allow someone to who’s not totally cognizant of reality to live on the streets because they enjoy it more than what would be assisted living? Hmmmmm….

[112]

3 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

The war on drugs is a pointless one considering how complicit so many are with allowing it to flow into major and minor metropolitan areas. That is true. 

Those people will also die prematurely because of the drugs, so it kind of cancels itself out in the end. Yet that market preys on those people and is always seeking new clientele as well. 

The hard part is usually the one most who seek to deaden their minds would like to avoid. I think people who really want to live free of drugs would find a way to do so. 

Why? What does this serve? And does the subsidizing of this come from increased taxes to the average citizen who keeps their shit together on a constant basis, even though they’d love to nullify their nerves to all the insanity this world bombards them with? 

Immediately assigning the idea of institutionalization with a mental hospital is a knee jerk response. Frontal lobotomies and electroshock therapy is a thing of the past and illegal. If (and I highly doubt it would ever happen) the entire facility of Riverview was restored and opened, it would be with a much more functional and compassionate approach being used for the residents. Some people are just very unwell and need the help of others to get to basic function. Somehow I think having that support is a little less miserable than sleeping behind a dumpster with shit in your pants and rats scurrying around you. 

Well, this is Canada, so even the criminally insane are treated with compassion. 

Really? The humane perspective is to allow someone to who’s not totally cognizant of reality to live on the streets because they enjoy it more than what would be assisted living? Hmmmmm….

 

The war on drugs is pointless because it is unwinnable until the state owns the supply and can out-compete gangs and ne'er-do-wells. Once the state owns the supply, many of the problems associated with addiction will no longer exist.

 

People dying prematurely because of the drugs is one of the problems a clean, state-procured supply will help fix.

 

People who really want to live free of drugs don't always find ways to do so, unfortunately. I've known people on methadone who have relapsed and died because they didn't adjust their dose for their new lack of tolerance. But I also don't really care if people don't want to live free of drugs; if they do, that's great, but a person should have a right to put what they want into their body.

 

Yes, presumably a supply of alcohol/marijuana would require tax dollars from "the average citizen." It serves the purpose of medicating people with diseases.

 

I've both been institutionalized and homeless in my time and there is hardly a compassionate approach within the facilities. I'd much rather be sleeping behind dumpsters again than living in a facility. Yes, the humane perspective is to realize that there is a better quality of life on the streets than in facilities.

[flickyoursedin]

With a rebuild ahead does Calgary look to shed a long term commitment in Mackenzie Weegar? If they were desperate to find a taker and were willing to retain salary to get Weegar down to 5.5-5.75 would you take that contract?

[AnthonyG]

18 hours ago, Alflives said:

Benning has been gone for two years but his horrid choices are still impacting the club. He did bring us Hughes, Petey, Miller, Boeser, and Demko though. But he left us with OEL, Garland, and Myers’ contracts. 

His good faaaar out weighs the bad.

He built the core, the most important part.

 

It wasnt Benning who chose to take a 4 year buyout penalty rather than 2 years of retention on Myers.

 

OEL was rock solid 2021-22, as was Myers. Last year was shit goaltending from game 1 of the season up til Demko returned from injury. Last year OEL played through injury and the coaching staff split OEL and Myers up to start the season. When shit was looking grim they paired them back together and Spencer Martin couldnt stop a beach ball. You cant blame defence, when goaltending allows FIFTY FIVE goals that every other goalie around the league was stopping. -55GSAA the worst in the league. Thats not on OEL or Myers. There were plays last year where Myers and OEL had cleared the front of the net and a weak shot attempt went in with no screen. I remember clearly remember a game where Myers had pushed a forward from out infront of the net in behind the goal line and held him out of the way, a clear sight shot from 30ft out beat Martin clean.

You’re only as good as your weakest player, Spencer Martin. There was no hope in hell for us last year when our goalies allowed 55 shots that every other goalie in the league was stopping.

 

You guys cry and complain about a GM who was here to build, he wasnt hired to win a cup in the first 5 years. Name 3 moves that have shortened our window to win a cup and resulted in us losing core pieces. Who will be here longer those “bad” contracts you named or those major pieces? JT Miller signed an extension after last seasons disappointment. He obviously believed this team was much better than what the standings said.

 

No GM is perfect and rebuilds. I’ll take 7 years of rebuilding and having 2 playoff appearances in the process, over 11 straight seasons of no playoffs. Look around the league Alf, look at the last 15 years of teams who went through rebuilds. It takes a fucking eternity and with Bennings worst contracts left behind we are top 3 in our division lol. Its amazing what happens when your star players, play like star players. There will always be growing pains after putting the core together.

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

His good faaaar out weighs the bad.

He built the core, the most important part.

 

It wasnt Benning who chose to take a 4 year buyout penalty rather than 2 years of retention on Myers.

 

OEL was rock solid 2021-22, as was Myers. Last year was shit goaltending from game 1 of the season up til Demko returned from injury. Last year OEL played through injury and the coaching staff split OEL and Myers up to start the season. When shit was looking grim they paired them back together and Spencer Martin couldnt stop a beach ball. You cant blame defence, when goaltending allows FIFTY FIVE goals that every other goalie around the league was stopping. -55GSAA the worst in the league. Thats not on OEL or Myers. There were plays last year where Myers and OEL had cleared the front of the net and a weak shot attempt went in with no screen. I remember clearly remember a game where Myers had pushed a forward from out infront of the net in behind the goal line and held him out of the way, a clear sight shot from 30ft out beat Martin clean.

You’re only as good as your weakest player, Spencer Martin. There was no hope in hell for us last year when our goalies allowed 55 shots that every other goalie in the league was stopping.

 

You guys cry and complain about a GM who was here to build, he wasnt hired to win a cup in the first 5 years. Name 3 moves that have shortened our window to win a cup and resulted in us losing core pieces. Who will be here longer those “bad” contracts you named or those major pieces? JT Miller signed an extension after last seasons disappointment. He obviously believed this team was much better than what the standings said.

 

No GM is perfect and rebuilds. I’ll take 7 years of rebuilding and having 2 playoff appearances in the process, over 11 straight seasons of no playoffs. Look around the league Alf, look at the last 15 years of teams who went through rebuilds. It takes a fucking eternity and with Bennings worst contracts left behind we are top 3 in our division lol. Its amazing what happens when your star players, play like star players. There will always be growing pains after putting the core together.

 

Benning screwed up the cap allocations and got too involved in the draft. Hughes fell into our Laos because other clubs were dumb. Benning didn’t want Petey. He wanted Glass and Linden had to step in and have the voices of the Scot’s be heard. 
This is all PLD news, but Benning’s bad cap allocation and horrid trades (signings) absolutely affect what this new, and competent, manage can do. 
 

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Benning screwed up the cap allocations and got too involved in the draft. Hughes fell into our Laos because other clubs were dumb. Benning didn’t want Petey. He wanted Glass and Linden had to step in and have the voices of the Scot’s be heard. 
This is all PLD news, but Benning’s bad cap allocation and horrid trades (signings) absolutely affect what this new, and competent, manage can do. 
 

And he was also saddled with a cap recapture and then right into a flat cap. He got fucked harder than page 69 of pornhub. 

This current management group fucked themselves by buying out OEL instead of moving Myers and Garland at the end of 2021-22. They could have retained on both of them and shipped them out and had a shorter wasted cap window and less than the penalty of OELs buyout. This management group is fortunate to have a noticeable cap increase coming.
 

 

[Rekker]

15 hours ago, flickyoursedin said:

With a rebuild ahead does Calgary look to shed a long term commitment in Mackenzie Weegar? If they were desperate to find a taker and were willing to retain salary to get Weegar down to 5.5-5.75 would you take that contract?

I'm not a big Weegar fan. Either way, if we are trading with Calgary for a defenseman under a termed contract, I'd much rather have Andersson. He's also a righty, on a good contract, suits our needs more than Weegar.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

And he was also saddled with a cap recapture and then right into a flat cap. He got fucked harder than page 69 of pornhub. 

This current management group fucked themselves by buying out OEL instead of moving Myers and Garland at the end of 2021-22. They could have retained on both of them and shipped them out and had a shorter wasted cap window and less than the penalty of OELs buyout. This management group is fortunate to have a noticeable cap increase coming.
 

 

 

From what I remember, Benning didn't scout Petey, he relied exclusively on our scouts, specifically Ron Delorme...

 

In picking Pettersson, Canucks prove you can't lose them all at draft | The Province

 

Things began to change for Pettersson in the 2015-16 season. Now 18, the slender Swede split time between Timra’s U-20 team and the parent club in the Allsvenskan, Sweden’s second division. That summer, he also played for Sweden at the Ivan Hlinka tournament in Slovakia where he caught the eye of veteran Canucks’ scout Ron Delorme.

“Ronny loved him,” says Benning.

 

Also, Benning supposedly preferred Cody Glass, while Judd Brackett wanted Petey...

 

A narrative has since emerged that suggests the hockey department was divided on Pettersson. Brackett was in favour of taking the Swede. Benning was leaning toward Glass.

 

In terms of Quinn Hughes, he was BPA at 7, nobody else was even close.  We got real lucky with that pick as both Detroit and Arizona passed on him for inferior players.

 

As for Demko, he was a solid pick in the 2nd round where lots of goalies get drafted.  The biggest thing with Demko was that he was able to develop in the AHL unlike most of Benning's other picks, so that helped him to come into the NHL better prepared.

 

Benning supposedly was the one who wanted Olli Juolevi, which was a complete disaster, same with Jake Virtanen.  Hitting on Petey and Hughes was fantastic, but completely butchering the other picks whereby those players aren't even in the league anymore is unfathomable and very poor drafting.

 

In terms of the salary cap, Benning was hired in 2014 when the cap was $69 million.  It rose all the way to $81.5 million before it was capped due to COVID.  So he had plenty of cap space available to make this team better.  He blew that money on Loui Eriksson, Jay Beagle, Antoine Roussel and others, trying hard to add to the core.  But most of those signings backfired on him.  Even Myers at $6 million was an overpayment.

 

His trades were just as worse.  Yes, he hit a home run on the Miller trade, but the rest of his trades were pretty much a disaster.  Sven Baertschi for a second which turned into Rasmus Andersson.  Linden Vey for a 2nd round pick.  Adan Clendening for Gustav Forsling.  Andrey Pedan for a 3rd round pick.  Eric Gudbranson for Jared McCann and a 2nd and a 4th.  Jason Dickinson for a 3rd round pick.  And of course the most horrific trade in Canucks history, OEL and Garland for a top 10 pick and a 2nd round pick.

 

I disagree with Myers and Garland.  Sweeteners would have need to be attached to those deals and Myers is now coming off the books this season.  We can't give Garland away, so we can hope he continues to play well as a $5 million 3rd liner for now.  The dead cap for OEL was not ideal, but it allowed us to add some UFA's this year in Cole and Soucy, Blueger and Suter without having to lose picks or prospects.

 

Benning had the Luongo recapture, but that was the least of his problems.  

 

The of course you had the hiring of Willie D, Travis Green and Bruce Boudreau.  Allvin went out and got his man in Tocchet plus added some great assistant coaches and with a few changes to the roster all of a sudden we are a serious playoff team.  This wasn't an accident.  

 

Benning had some good moments, but at the end of the day he did more harm than good.  He hasn't been hired since he got fired, I doubt he gets another GM position.  Maybe an assistant GM...

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

From what I remember, Benning didn't scout Petey, he relied exclusively on our scouts, specifically Ron Delorme...

 

In picking Pettersson, Canucks prove you can't lose them all at draft | The Province

 

Things began to change for Pettersson in the 2015-16 season. Now 18, the slender Swede split time between Timra’s U-20 team and the parent club in the Allsvenskan, Sweden’s second division. That summer, he also played for Sweden at the Ivan Hlinka tournament in Slovakia where he caught the eye of veteran Canucks’ scout Ron Delorme.

“Ronny loved him,” says Benning.

 

Also, Benning supposedly preferred Cody Glass, while Judd Brackett wanted Petey...

 

A narrative has since emerged that suggests the hockey department was divided on Pettersson. Brackett was in favour of taking the Swede. Benning was leaning toward Glass.

 

In terms of Quinn Hughes, he was BPA at 7, nobody else was even close.  We got real lucky with that pick as both Detroit and Arizona passed on him for inferior players.

 

As for Demko, he was a solid pick in the 2nd round where lots of goalies get drafted.  The biggest thing with Demko was that he was able to develop in the AHL unlike most of Benning's other picks, so that helped him to come into the NHL better prepared.

 

Benning supposedly was the one who wanted Olli Juolevi, which was a complete disaster, same with Jake Virtanen.  Hitting on Petey and Hughes was fantastic, but completely butchering the other picks whereby those players aren't even in the league anymore is unfathomable and very poor drafting.

 

In terms of the salary cap, Benning was hired in 2014 when the cap was $69 million.  It rose all the way to $81.5 million before it was capped due to COVID.  So he had plenty of cap space available to make this team better.  He blew that money on Loui Eriksson, Jay Beagle, Antoine Roussel and others, trying hard to add to the core.  But most of those signings backfired on him.  Even Myers at $6 million was an overpayment.

 

His trades were just as worse.  Yes, he hit a home run on the Miller trade, but the rest of his trades were pretty much a disaster.  Sven Baertschi for a second which turned into Rasmus Andersson.  Linden Vey for a 2nd round pick.  Adan Clendening for Gustav Forsling.  Andrey Pedan for a 3rd round pick.  Eric Gudbranson for Jared McCann and a 2nd and a 4th.  Jason Dickinson for a 3rd round pick.  And of course the most horrific trade in Canucks history, OEL and Garland for a top 10 pick and a 2nd round pick.

 

I disagree with Myers and Garland.  Sweeteners would have need to be attached to those deals and Myers is now coming off the books this season.  We can't give Garland away, so we can hope he continues to play well as a $5 million 3rd liner for now.  The dead cap for OEL was not ideal, but it allowed us to add some UFA's this year in Cole and Soucy, Blueger and Suter without having to lose picks or prospects.

 

Benning had the Luongo recapture, but that was the least of his problems.  

 

The of course you had the hiring of Willie D, Travis Green and Bruce Boudreau.  Allvin went out and got his man in Tocchet plus added some great assistant coaches and with a few changes to the roster all of a sudden we are a serious playoff team.  This wasn't an accident.  

 

Benning had some good moments, but at the end of the day he did more harm than good.  He hasn't been hired since he got fired, I doubt he gets another GM position.  Maybe an assistant GM...

Our Swedish scout, Inge Hammarstrom (ex Leaf) was first to see Petey. He made Delorme aware. 

[Elias Pettersson]

Just now, Alflives said:

Our Swedish scout, Inge Hammarstrom (ex Leaf) was first to see Petey. He made Delorme aware. 

 

Yes, I believe Marcus Naslund also caught on to him at an early age as well when he was the GM at Modo...

[The Duke]

Weegar is a guy I kind of forgot about. 
 

If they take back Garland or *whoever* to make it work, I’d give up a 1st.  Retention isn’t an option IMO or necessary.
 

He has a full NTC, though. But that’s some tires worth kicking.

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, The Duke said:

Weegar is a guy I kind of forgot about. 
 

If they take back Garland or *whoever* to make it work, I’d give up a 1st.  Retention isn’t an option IMO or necessary.
 

He has a full NTC, though. But that’s some tires worth kicking.

Good player but he will be 30 in January and is in year one of an 8 x 6.25 contract. Maybe Chaos Giraffe will sign a new (two year) deal this July for 2-3 per? 

[The Duke]

Just now, Alflives said:

Good player but he will be 30 in January and is in year one of an 8 x 6.25 contract. Maybe Chaos Giraffe will sign a new (two year) deal this July for 2-3 per? 

I was just scoping out the UFAs for defencemen and the only guy (Pesce) around Weegar’s level will be getting about the same deal - maybe a little more since I think he’s a little better and the cap is finally going up.

 

Management has some hard decisions on how to approach the back end this year / offseason.
 

To your suggestion - I’d like any 2 of Myers/Friedman/Bear on the 3rd pair and 7th D if they’re signing for cheap / short deals.
 

Going to take a trade to fill the 2nd pair with a proper RD, though.  
 

And then there’s Cole’s age as well. He’s not a long term solution on the 2nd pair, despite being excellent this year.

in any case, im not worrying or anything - nice to just focus on how the team is playing at the moment.  

[Elias Pettersson]

Tanev makes the most sense.  He's a UFA this year, can probably get him on a reasonable extension for another 2-3 years and won't cost as much.  The we can get Zadorov as a UFA in the summer.  Cole will be 35 next summer, so not sure if we would bring him back unless it's another one year deal...

 

Hughes     Hronek

Zadorov    Tanev

Soucy        Myers

 

That's a big nasty defence that can compete with Vegas.  Plus we have Willander on the way...

[Rekker]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Our Swedish scout, Inge Hammarstrom

Cool name, sounds badass. I'd listen as well. 

[flickyoursedin]

2 hours ago, Rekker said:

I'm not a big Weegar fan. Either way, if we are trading with Calgary for a defenseman under a termed contract, I'd much rather have Andersson. He's also a righty, on a good contract, suits our needs more than Weegar.

Of course everybody would rather Andersson but with the long term commitment Weegar might be viewed as negative value trade wise but is still a good player. You’d have to give up probably a 1rst round pick, top prospect, plus more. Weegar you could probably give them Beauvillier or Garland, B prospect and lesser picks. If they’re starting a rebuild they might want to try moving their only movable long term commitment before he gets older and they can’t.

[Alflives]

59 minutes ago, Rekker said:

Cool name, sounds badass. I'd listen as well. 

Inge actually played on the Leafs a way back.  Don Cherry used to say Hammerstrom could play a game with eggs in his pants and never break one. Great scout for us though! 

[RWJC]

44 minutes ago, flickyoursedin said:

Of course everybody would rather Andersson but with the long term commitment Weegar might be viewed as negative value trade wise but is still a good player. You’d have to give up probably a 1rst round pick, top prospect, plus more. Weegar you could probably give them Beauvillier or Garland, B prospect and lesser picks. If they’re starting a rebuild they might want to try moving their only movable long term commitment before he gets older and they can’t.

i think this might be underestimating Weegar’s value to other clubs and what would be offered for him. He’s arguably a top pairing Dman. No one is getting him for bit players and surplus B level parts. He’s still a stud Dman on a team where everyone is playing sub par, he’s cost controlled (though agree that term is about 3 years too long) and if you look at him objectively, he’s only making 250K more per year than Myers. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by RWJC

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, RWJC said:

i think this might be underestimating Weegar’s value to other clubs and what would be offered for him. He’s arguably a top pairing Dman. No one is getting him for bit players and surplus B level parts. He’s still a stud Dman on a team where everyone is playing sub par, he’s cost controlled (though agree that term is about 3 years too long) and if you look at him objectively, he’s making 250K more per year than Myers. 

And Myers’ contract is over after this season. Weegar has 7 more years after this one. Considering the length of term and age of the plsyer I doubt Allvin would be interested. 

[The Duke]

Hanifin would be awesome, too.  That’s the kind of piece I’d be happy to have Cole swap to his off hand for.  
 

Probably way too pricey but he fits the UFA bill. 

[Coconuts]

Edmonton sure could use a Tanev, so could Toronto. Their D is pretty abysmal. If any of these players are actually available there will be several teams interested in all of them. Doubt any of them come cheap, although Hanifin will understandably cost the most. 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Coconuts

[Pears]

If there's a chance we can swing a deal for Hanifin and Tanev we'd have to do it right?

 

Hughes - Hronek

Hanifin - Cole

Soucy - Tanev

Friedman, Myers*

 

That's an all world defense capable of hanging with the big dogs. 

[Rekker]

37 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Tanev, so could Toronto. Their D is pretty abysmal. If

Toronto had so many opportunities to aquire Tanev. Rumors he could of been had during our "retool-rebuild", free agency. Befuddles me they didn't go for it. I remember the TO fan base not wanting Vancouvers stain. I argue Tanev, healthy and back in his prime would of made all the difference in Toronto. He's that stready and good. 

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, Rekker said:

Toronto had so many opportunities to aquire Tanev. Rumors he could of been had during our "retool-rebuild", free agency. Befuddles me they didn't go for it. I remember the TO fan base not wanting Vancouvers stain. I argue Tanev, healthy and back in his prime would of made all the difference in Toronto. He's that stready and good. 

 

Things are a bit different now with former Calgary Flames GM Brad Treliving having set up shop in Toronto. 

 

I know this is a Canucks board, but while several Flames players would probably be good fits as Canucks it strikes me as unlikely that Vancouver would be a sure bet to beat out other bidders if Hanifin, Zadorov, and Tanev become available. Particularly closer to the deadline when teams have a better of what later season playoff odds look like. Calgary can afford to retain cap on players like Tanev, Zadorov, Hanifin, and Lindholm to drive up their ask. Would management inquire? Absolutely, that's their job and if they aren't connecting with other GM's daily they aren't doing their jobs.

 

Calgary will probably favour whichever offer is best/fits their ask best, I'm not sure we can afford that to be us. We're just now starting to restock our cupboards with blue chip talent and it's a bit early to be pushing chips in. 

[Rekker]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

Zadorov, and Tanev become available. Particularly closer to the deadline

I really want either of them, particularly Zadorov. That said, I think we are better off waiting till summer free agency where I bet both of these players will take a serious look at a Canucks contract offer. What we would need to offer up at the deadline, we just aren't thick on. If a third pick could land one of them than sure, but its going to take more me thinks.