Elliotte Friedman? Omfg!

[CanucksJay]

22 hours ago, stawns said:

Green was similar to RT up until the season they imploded.  They had a steady climb of improvement under Green (when healthy) and when they all pulled in the same direction, they were tough to play against.  For whatever reason, they tuned him out and it fell apart 

 

BB was an unmitigated disaster

I don't think Green was similar to RT at all. Under Green, our guys gave up our blue line and allowed easy entries quite frequently.  You heard RT talk about he wants guys to defend skating forward while the boys constantly skated backward under TG. Once in our zone, TG basically wanted the team to collapse into a tight zone and block shots or have Demko make the save while RT wants it guys to get out to the shooters fast and challenge / create turnovers. 

Breakouts... Another huge difference in how they break out. TG would have the team  ring it around the boards to the winger at the hashmarks, centre would button hook in front of our goalie and skate up the ice looking for a pass. This became stale and predictable very quickly. Opposing team would pinch down hard on the winger who was standing stationary at the hashmarks. All Boeser or whoever it was could do is flub it into the middle and try to catch our centre coming up ice. We're actually lucky some of our centres didn't get their head taken off with an opponent stepping up and meeting them at the blue line because that play was so predictable. We also used to dump it in the majority of the time under Green. We see our guys hold pucks a lot more now. Even in breakouts, how often do you see us just ring it around the boards? Our guys actually skate it out quite often now. We take the middle of the ice and give ourselves options in how we want to move the puck. 

TG was a complete amateur. He is built for a talentless team that can only win games 1-0 or  2-1 by having the goalie stand on his head and capitalizing on the one or two chances we have in a game. 

Compete night and day to RT.

There's a reason TG still doesn't have a job. This is despite all the coaching scandals and firings that have happened the past few years. 

TG is in a tough situation. He is built to coach a team of bottom 6 players. The talented ones see how stupid his systems are. He needs to get on a team where they players know they suck and need to fully buy in to TGs system for a chance to win. Basically you need a team full of guys with mediocre talent like Friedman who will do what the coach and team asks of you. That is where TG will make the most impact and produce wins above expected wins. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by CanucksJay

[stawns]

25 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

I don't think Green was similar to RT at all. Under Green, our guys gave up our blue line and allowed easy entries quite frequently.  You heard RT talk about he wants guys to defend skating forward while the boys constantly skated backward under TG. Once in our zone, TG basically wanted the team to collapse into a tight zone and block shots or have Demko make the save while RT wants it guys to get out to the shooters fast and challenge / create turnovers. 

Breakouts... Another huge difference in how they break out. TG would have the team  ring it around the boards to the winger at the hashmarks, centre would button hook in front of our goalie and skate up the ice looking for a pass. This became stale and predictable very quickly. Opposing team would pinch down hard on the winger who was standing stationary at the hashmarks. All Boeser or whoever it was could do is flub it into the middle and try to catch our centre coming up ice. We're actually lucky some of our centres didn't get their head taken off with an opponent stepping up and meeting them at the blue line because that play was so predictable. We also used to dump it in the majority of the time under Green. We see our guys hold pucks a lot more now. Even in breakouts, how often do you see us just ring it around the boards? Our guys actually skate it out quite often now. We take the middle of the ice and give ourselves options in how we want to move the puck. 

TG was a complete amateur. He is built for a talentless team that can only win games 1-0 or  2-1 by having the goalie stand on his head and capitalizing on the one or two chances we have in a game. 

Compete night and day to RT.

There's a reason TG still doesn't have a job. This is despite all the coaching scandals and firings that have happened the past few years. 

TG is in a tough situation. He is built to coach a team of bottom 6 players. The talented ones see how stupid his systems are. He needs to get on a team where they players know they suck and need to fully buy in to TGs system for a chance to win. Basically you need a team full of guys with mediocre talent like Friedman who will do what the coach and team asks of you. That is where TG will make the most impact and produce wins above expected wins. 

I disagree completely, both RT and TG employ very similar systems and styles........both coaches want a hard forechecking, hard to play against team at both ends of the ice and when the Canucks, under Green, were "on" and healthy that's how they played leading up to and through the bubble playoffs.

 

Under Green, they had a very young, immature core, that were just getting their careers going and inconsistency was the issue.  However, when they were on their game, they looked very similar to this team.  That core, now, are entering their prime and understand what being professionals mean and show up every night and play hard.

 

For reasons unknown to us, the team turned on Green.........unnecessary mind games is my guess and are playing hard for this coaching staff.  However, the systems and expectations are very similar 

 

 

[MeanSeanBean]

We are 100% over achieving, this isn't even in question. 

 

We have 3 players in the top 10, more then any other team in the league including the cup defending Titans who are first place in the NHL. We have 7 players in the top 10 for +/-. We have a plus 26 goal differential, which is top of the league by a considerable margin given that number 2 and 3 in the league are 21 and 16. 

 

Their PDO (essentially a statically way to record how many goals are being scored for and against you) is well over the statically average for sustainable play and this definitely reflects luck being a part of their current goal scoring/saving streak. Over the full course of last year, 80% of the teams had a PDO between 99 to 101, with the top teams sitting only slightly higher. The Canucks PDO is currently at 108.9 which indicated that while we are playing extraordinary hockey, there is also clearly a large portion of puck luck also playing a part in this teams start.

 

No one was expecting this team to be a top team in the league, it was always going to be a race to make the playoffs. The team is 100% over achieving as one of the top teams in the league right now and having a tantrum that a hockey pundit points that out is silly.

[CanucksJay]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

I disagree completely, both RT and TG employ very similar systems and styles........both coaches want a hard forechecking, hard to play against team at both ends of the ice and when the Canucks, under Green, were "on" and healthy that's how they played leading up to and through the bubble playoffs.

 

Under Green, they had a very young, immature core, that were just getting their careers going and inconsistency was the issue.  However, when they were on their game, they looked very similar to this team.  That core, now, are entering their prime and understand what being professionals mean and show up every night and play hard.

 

For reasons unknown to us, the team turned on Green.........unnecessary mind games is my guess and are playing hard for this coaching staff.  However, the systems and expectations are very similar 

 

 

Thanks for your explanation. Ok we agree to disagree. I think if you asked every coach in the NHL, they would all say they want a  hard fore checking team that's hard to play against on both ends of the rink. I mean sure you can probably find a couple of teams that play more defensive / trap like the 90s devils but I would say the majority of the teams are looking for the style of play that you pointed out. Where I'm saying they differ greatly is in how they achieve that same goal. To me, nothing in TGs system indicates that. 

Even BB (the guy was a disaster (structurally) I agree) but the first thing he noticed is that the team didn't take the game to the opponents. They sat back and adjusted to how the opponents dictated the play, pace etc. You can find multiple quotes of BB talking about how it's more fun and engaging and easier to play when you are the aggressors and going in on the forecheck quickly to create turnovers etc. BB went too far the other way because he forgot about structure while doing part A. But basically, I'm bringing this up because BB was juxtaposing his style compared to TG which was to sit back more and try to clog up the ice. 

Personally I think the team tuned out TG becuase his system sucked and didn't play to the team's strengths. He literally almost broke Petey and sucked out all the creativity off the team. 

I marvel at how RTs system has structure and predictability but creates situations for our stars in iso situations (basketball term) to take over the play, beat the opposition and create a scoring chance. 

Its like football where coaches draw up plays where there is a mismatch and you have a wr running in full speed one on one in the open field against a linebacker. It'd be pretty hard for the linebacker to make a tackle there. 

RT creates these situations for guys like Petey and Hughes all the time. That's why the team is engaged and playing "above their potential" where as TG sucked out all the good while trying to get rid of the bad. 

Who knows, maybe teams will adjust and RT will have to adapt. I think that's what happened to TG. His system didn't allow for our stars to play to their strengths because he thought that meant they wouldn't be responsible defensively. As a result, our top guys played like they were in a box. RT has been a breath of fresh air. He has taught them that in his system, you will play with speed and own the centre of the ice. This is especially good for our talented guys that can expose their opponents on the open ice. 

 

[iceman1964]

5 hours ago, LaBamba said:

You had high hopes and they have delivered.
I’m not discrediting the team and our start. I’m just not convinced we are a juggernaut. Cause our record suggests we are. 

Ok then I  think it was a case of misunderstanding because I hardly think we're a juggernaut, our recent picks are still simmering and need more, we need a bigger Garland, a tweener 2-3rd liner..  

And the reason I thought EF was off his gourd is that we still have room to improve, and if it was us overachieving then we'd be a lot better than we are, there's room to play better, by no means are we elite, are we getting closer? Sure, BUT we simply don't have enough depth anyway, like others pointed out, if we get hit with injuries and we'd turn into the same ole if we made it into the post, we'd be lucky to make it past the first round, you know as well as I that the post is brutal and when injuries hit, without elite depth as in fully developed waiting for their chance to break into the league and fit in seemlessly like the Detroit of old especially, then we'd be legit... Without we are NOT! Anyone thinking we are without is simply setting themselves up for letdown, we've been down that road since 1970.. I've been watching since 72 I think and it has NEVER changed, exactly why we don't have a cup, the few shots we did get ended with key guys going down.. that needs to end..

Because you nailed it rightly, let's say we did make the post this year exactly with this roster, we'd do ok up until a key injury or 2 and then we'd crash and burn, just like all the other years we got in and ended up turfed in the first round BUT a great entertaining season, for those who like that ending, whatever but I'm f'n tired of it already.. 

 I think this team is underachieving myself, watch what happens when we play the Bruins or the Knights, and speaking of that, in the bubble was over achieving, this is not.. this is a way better roster than that one was 

[IBatch]

On 11/5/2023 at 12:41 PM, stawns said:

Green was similar to RT up until the season they imploded.  They had a steady climb of improvement under Green (when healthy) and when they all pulled in the same direction, they were tough to play against.  For whatever reason, they tuned him out and it fell apart 

 

BB was an unmitigated disaster

Don't think BB was a disaster, he was what the players needed at the time.   Then wasn't. 

 

As for Green one thing that I remember, was a lot of one goal games and a lot of effort (something rarely anyone would complain about either).   Maybe the roster is just better now?   Nobody should be disagreeing on that and if they are they are being kind of silly.   It is a better roster.   Agree they eventually shut him out.   Every year he'd have to pull them out of some funk and managed (Green).   And every year I had to sit here and watch some fools think it was coaching and not the roster too.  
 

Edit: Tochett is doing well, and like him.   Didn't or never had a problem with Green.   Not sure why people expected a contender lol.   Ridiculous.   I'm sure he will get his chance again soon as well.  Hopefully, like Tochett he will wait for a better team. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by IBatch

[stawns]

30 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Don't think BB was a disaster, he was what the players needed at the time.   Then wasn't. 

 

As for Green one thing that I remember, was a lot of one goal games and a lot of effort (something rarely anyone would complain about either).   Maybe the roster is just better now?   Nobody should be disagreeing on that and if they are they are being kind of silly.   It is a better roster.   Agree they eventually shut him out.   Every year he'd have to pull them out of some funk and managed (Green).   And every year I had to sit here and watch some fools think it was coaching and not the roster too.  
 

Edit: Tochett is doing well, and like him.   Didn't or never had a problem with Green.   Not sure why people expected a contender lol.   Ridiculous.   I'm sure he will get his chance again soon as well.  Hopefully, like Tochett he will wait for a better team. 

The roster is deeper and the young guys are now vets coming into their prime.

 

I'm certainly not saying that Green was better than Tocchet or vice versa, just that they were similar coaches.

[IBatch]

17 minutes ago, stawns said:

The roster is deeper and the young guys are now vets coming into their prime.

 

I'm certainly not saying that Green was better than Tocchet or vice versa, just that they were similar coaches.

We agree!  Don't disagree at all.   Always didn't like the amount of crap Green got for not winning more.   Look at those rosters and where they were.    Even at the end he was fired after winning 2 of 3 games.   Not saying he shouldn't have been fired either, he lost the room.   It was a mercy killing.  Funny thing though, is every losing streak (which were usually one goal games!),  during his tenure, he brought them back.   That's a good coach.   A great coach no, but he was bad either.   Not sure why people thought he should somehow pull a rebuilding team into a contender but so feel that's what some felt he should do.   Silly.   Tochett himself said Green is a great coach, a confidant and a friend.  

[stawns]

30 minutes ago, IBatch said:

We agree!  Don't disagree at all.   Always didn't like the amount of crap Green got for not winning more.   Look at those rosters and where they were.    Even at the end he was fired after winning 2 of 3 games.   Not saying he shouldn't have been fired either, he lost the room.   It was a mercy killing.  Funny thing though, is every losing streak (which were usually one goal games!),  during his tenure, he brought them back.   That's a good coach.   A great coach no, but he was bad either.   Not sure why people thought he should somehow pull a rebuilding team into a contender but so feel that's what some felt he should do.   Silly.   Tochett himself said Green is a great coach, a confidant and a friend.  

I was a strong Green supporter when he was the minor league coach and thrilled when he was hired in Van.  I liked how he started and how the team progressed and then things started to sour and you could tell he was playing mind games and playing favorites.  Imo, he ruined Virtanen

[Baratheon]

I personally felt like we made multiple short term moves.  I expected this is to be a good year because that seems to be what we were shooting for.  

It's great that it's working out!  I've said before that what's done is done.  Let's hope that these guys continue to rock and roll!

 

I do hope that we eventually stop trying to use "the media" as a crutch.  It's okay (good?) to hold the team to a standard.  When RT criticizes the team is that because he used to work for TNT as part of the MeDiA?  Lol

[tas]

58 minutes ago, stawns said:

I was a strong Green supporter when he was the minor league coach and thrilled when he was hired in Van.  I liked how he started and how the team progressed and then things started to sour and you could tell he was playing mind games and playing favorites.  Imo, he ruined Virtanen

jake ruined jake. a kid that dumb was never going to succeed. he can barely produce in the friggin' german league. 

 

green definitely made mistakes at the end of his tenure, but he put way more time and effort into developing jake virtanen than jake virtanen ever did. 

[iceman1964]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

We agree!  Don't disagree at all.   Always didn't like the amount of crap Green got for not winning more.   Look at those rosters and where they were.    Even at the end he was fired after winning 2 of 3 games.   Not saying he shouldn't have been fired either, he lost the room.   It was a mercy killing.  Funny thing though, is every losing streak (which were usually one goal games!),  during his tenure, he brought them back.   That's a good coach.   A great coach no, but he was bad either.   Not sure why people thought he should somehow pull a rebuilding team into a contender but so feel that's what some felt he should do.   Silly.   Tochett himself said Green is a great coach, a confidant and a friend.  

I think the main reason folks all of a sudden didn't care for Greener is that he wasn't able to do the impossible that a lot of fans think should have been done, i.e

 Win the cup with no depth and this is normal, it's been going on for years, but no matter how you slice it, a depthless team isn't winning anything, no matter how many $$$ FA's are signed on a roster, no team can make it to the cup and win it without depth, it's been tried many times, we're hardly the only who have tried it though, the N.Y. Rangers for example, years ago was nick named a high priced prima donna roster yet it didn't get them anything either. 

Can't cheat your way to a cup by trying a short cut.. it's been tried.. omg way too much! It's been our franchises history and what have we got to show for it, great seasonal teams and no cup.. wooo f'n hoooo!! NOT!

So at the end of the day, asking a coach to win it all with a depthless team is ridiculous! Willy, Green, BB, etc.. it doesn't matter who it is, not going to happen, TOC might IF we don't trade away what's in the system now, especially on D with Willander and D-petey on the way, but not holding my breath because if it's not one thing its another... 

However my fingers are still crossed JR takes the advice of TOC and company and gets skilled tougher players like TOC himself used to be like, and we need to grow them, not pay huge cap... 

[stawns]

28 minutes ago, tas said:

jake ruined jake. a kid that dumb was never going to succeed. he can barely produce in the friggin' german league. 

 

green definitely made mistakes at the end of his tenure, but he put way more time and effort into developing jake virtanen than jake virtanen ever did. 

I disagree, you don't get to that point if you're not coachable.  Green played awful head games with Virtanen, starting in Utica.

[tas]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

I disagree, you don't get to that point if you're not coachable.  Green played awful head games with Virtanen, starting in Utica.

jake coasted through junior on natural gifts. no work ethic and mush between the ears. 

[stawns]

41 minutes ago, tas said:

jake coasted through junior on natural gifts. no work ethic and mush between the ears. 

Again, you don't get that without being coachable.  Jake has his part in it, but Green completely messed him up.

[tas]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

Again, you don't get that without being coachable.  Jake has his part in it, but Green completely messed him up.

I don't buy it, personally, considering 3 straight Calder finalists. green knew how to put young players in positions to succeed. 

[Bob Long]

13 minutes ago, tas said:

I don't buy it, personally, considering 3 straight Calder finalists. green knew how to put young players in positions to succeed. 

 

shame about Baumgartner tho 

[Rekker]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

I was a strong Green supporter when he was the minor league coach and thrilled when he was hired in Van.  I liked how he started and how the team progressed and then things started to sour and you could tell he was playing mind games and playing favorites.  Imo, he ruined Virtanen

I believe Green was afraid of JT as well and figured Miller could turn the room against him. We will never know, but that maybe even have happened.

That's not happening with Coach Tocchet. In fact, I think JT and Coach Tocchet see a lot of themselves in each other and mutual respect.

[NHL97OneTimer]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:41 AM, stawns said:

Green was similar to RT up until the season they imploded.  They had a steady climb of improvement under Green (when healthy) and when they all pulled in the same direction, they were tough to play against.  For whatever reason, they tuned him out and it fell apart 

 

BB was an unmitigated disaster

Please don't compare Green with what we have today.  RT is showing he's a couple of steps up plus the commentators are correct.....the Canucks now have coaches and player development staff that can all teach the specialties and be respected as NHL legends.  This may not be the best Canucks team we've had, but it's the best coaching group we've had and this team is starting to play a similar style that the 2011 Canucks played. The only thing missing is the pests!

[stawns]

1 minute ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

Please don't compare Green with what we have today.  RT is showing he's a couple of steps up plus the commentators are correct.....the Canucks now have coaches and player development staff that can all teach the specialties and be respected as NHL legends.  This may not be the best Canucks team we've had, but it's the best coaching group we've had and this team is starting to play a similar style that the 2011 Canucks played. The only thing missing is the pests!

I compared their coaching styles which, are indeed, similar.

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, stawns said:

I compared their coaching styles which, are indeed, similar.

 

I agree with this. On our best nights with Green, we always were a relentless team with and without possession. Green could also get a lot out of certain bottom 6 guys. He had horrid rosters though and couldn't get the team to buy in frequently. 

 

Tocchet can implement this style at the NHL level more consistently whereas Green cannot.

[PureQuickness]

On 11/5/2023 at 11:45 AM, Down By the River said:

I haven't cared for Friedman that much over the last five or so years. He doesn't want to rock the boat. He saw the success of the Chiclets podcast and started wanting to be more player/team friendly. He was quiet on the Blackhawks sexual assault cover-up(s) and said he didn't say much about it because Rick Westhead knew more. I think that's a cop-out. He'd rather get the scoop on which 14th forward is about to be placed on waivers than do any real journalism. 

 

All that being said, he also did just say that the Canucks are Canada's best team, so I don't know why the OP is so upset about this lol. 

 

I hear what you're saying. On the other hand, nobody else needs to say anything else except Westhead. Clearly he was the trusted insider and there's no use trying to play virtue politics.

 

What Chicago management did was DISGRACEFUL.

[stawns]

30 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

I agree with this. On our best nights with Green, we always were a relentless team with and without possession. Green could also get a lot out of certain bottom 6 guys. He had horrid rosters though and couldn't get the team to buy in frequently. 

 

Tocchet can implement this style at the NHL level more consistently whereas Green cannot.

The team under green was progressing nicely, but obviously something was rotten in the room and they turned on him.

 

Different phase of the team, so hard to compare.  They're playing well now, that's what counts

[filthy animal]

On 11/4/2023 at 11:02 PM, iceman1964 said:

Elliotte Friedman:

 

Rick Tocchett is getting the canucks over achieving? Omfg! Like NOT! 

 

News flash Elliotte.. we finally got out holes filled with quality players around the core and added to it with the likes of Kuz and Mik especially, Blueger isn't even in the lineup either. 

 Past that, Demko is back to being his stellar self, Casey is backing him up and doing a awesome job, omg even Myers is playing a lot better and closer to his pay grade and his shorty the last game was great! 

Petey is on a tear as usual, Brock is back to himself finally and sniping like mad and playing better D which he was capable of. 

J.T. is mimicking his first season here and how he left of from last season. 

Mik is back and using his speed and still getting going.

 Not much in a way is new here except for the additions that filled us out, Lafferty a good upgrade. 

Ian Cole making opposition skate with hesitation knowing if the make a mistake they'll get wasted into the boards, he loves to hit. 

Hoglander getting reps in and continuing his forechecking ways and getting better and upping his confidence. 

 Soucy (big boy) with snarl that we needed badly, Joshua picking it up and playing harder and smarter. 

Hughes? Whoa! He just keeps getting better and turning opposing players inside out and looking like a pylon for playtime pond practice.. 

 

So Friedman, TOC has the team playing for each other and still room for improvement and still not at our ceiling, not even close, there's a ton of talent on this team and all ut needed was support and now we have it. 

 

It's as simple as that, any good core in the NHL with proper support is going to do well, now all we need is depth for it and let's hope it continues to develop in the form of Willander, D-petey, etc etc  to make a appearance in the next year or 2 but credit the coaches for sure and I'm not saying Toc isn't working hard in the least to challenge guys and with the help of the Twins, Gochar, Clark, etc. are simply paying dividends that eventually had to come with the right additions. 

No we're not THERE yet but saying we're overachieving? Not even close!!! 

 

 

Just curious but were you born in 1964?

[iceman1964]

7 hours ago, filthy animal said:

 

Just curious but were you born in 1964?

Yup...  My first game was listening to the radio in the back of a old station wagon moving to 100 Mile house, then black and white TV..  yeah I know, dinosaur right?  Yes I meant me lmao!