[PGT] Coilers at Canucks

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

My feelings on it are well known, and while you can dispute the active participants, the balance of power in the room changed and there was obviously a power struggle of some kind.......one that consumed the team for two seasons

Well it’s good news the damage is repaired. 

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, tas said:

I liked bo, great guy, but I always felt like there should be more there. like, do you ever remember seeing him bleed for the team?

 

he played soft. it was a heavy soft, but it was still soft. 

Again, up until things fell apart, no one thought that......at all.  

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Well it’s good news the damage is repaired. 

For now, at least.  I wish I still had some connections to the org, I'd love to know what happened 

[tas]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

Again, up until things fell apart, no one thought that......at all.  

I did. it was an underlying feeling, and he always elevated in the few big game moments he got to play in which was reassuring to me. but it was always there, almost like the whole super leader thing was a touch hollow. groomed. but I support my team and i trusted he'd grow into it as he got more big game opportunities. he still may. 

 

but he still plays soft. 

[Hammertime]

3 hours ago, spook007 said:

 

Aye it easier to be good, when you have most of the hard pieces to acquire...

 

In saying that JR/PA has found good players to surround the team with and reasonable money, which mattered a lot...

 

If Benning had had a President like JR to guide him a bit more in team building/pro scouting as well as (and maybe more importantly) choosing the right coaches, he might still have been in charge... a lot of ifs and but, but still....

 

JR/PA are doing fabulously and thankfully right away, so we don't waste any more time of Petey and QH as well as Demko and Miller.

Very much agree. JB's downfall was that he simply couldn't wear all the hats whether that was his own doing who knows but him basically being GM, POHO, and head scout was destined to fail.  For all the vitrol directed at JB for his short comings nobody could have succeeded under the circumstances and I really think he worked his butt off and his heart was in the right place the role he had taken on was far too broad for one person to do effectively. 

[Breadnbutta]

55 minutes ago, stawns said:

Again, up until things fell apart, no one thought that......at all.  

Speak for yourself.

 

Have you ever seen Bo lay a big hit or even grab someone in a scrum?

 

Even Petey will lay a hit once in a while and Hughes even grabbed McDavid from behind the other day.

 

It's not a slight on Bo, he's still a good player. But he didn't fit the mold of a JR/RT team.

[stawns]

11 minutes ago, Breadnbutta said:

Speak for yourself.

 

Have you ever seen Bo lay a big hit or even grab someone in a scrum?

 

Even Petey will lay a hit once in a while and Hughes even grabbed McDavid from behind the other day.

 

It's not a slight on Bo, he's still a good player. But he didn't fit the mold of a JR/RT team.

The issue being discussed isnt about that, it's that until the team fell apart, no one had issues about Bo or his leadership.  If anything, people were concerned he wasnt going to find another gear offensively.  

[SilentSam]

It used to be a Goalie Graveyard here,.

… now we’re killing the other guys .. lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steamer4GM]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:30 PM, Gurn said:

Lots of folk seem to forget the biggest potential problem with the Miller deal, is not the first few years, but rather the ones at the end.

And lots of ppl seem to forget that you make the Miller deal (and others like it) betting on the value of the first few making up for lack of value in the last few. Miller is, currently at least, demonstrating exactly how well a deal like this CAN work out and, by the end of the entire term, both sides have been compensated fairly for their contributions.

[LillStrimma]

13 hours ago, stawns said:

You do not understand nuance and context, I get it.

 

Benning made a lot of missteps in his last couple of years and he paid the price for it.  I said, then, that he was probably not going to be the one to see his work come to fruition, much the way Burke/Nonis didn't.......that's often how it goes in professional sports management.

 

Full credit to Allvon for building on the foundation that Benning built, butake no mistake, the foundation of the current team is Bennings work 

I hope you can listen to Linden at least since you don’t appreciate my expertise regarding Benning…

[kilgore]

7 hours ago, The Duke said:

 

Benning left JR/Allvin a franchise 1C, an elite two-way 2, a good top 6 winger, a franchise Norris-caliber D man, and a Vezina caliber goalie.  All under 30 and most in mid 20s when they took over.  
 

Those are the near-impossible pieces to just find outside the draft and about 75% of the job. 

 

He inherited Horvat, who was deemed expendable by current management because of Petey and Miller.  Horvat as a trade chip, ironically also holding more value than Benning’s best when he took over in Kesler.   It’s just two completely different scenarios to walk into.
 

Allvin and co get a ton of credit with pro scouting and what seems to be decent amateur scouting as well.  But their decision to “go for it” by signing Miller, Boeser, Mikheyev while trading for Hronek should be fairly judged against their ability to build a contender. Looking great to start this season.

 

Id argue Benning’s first job was to accumulate the big pieces he did.  Where he failed was surrounding them with a roster, prospect pool and cap flexibility to grow into a contender.  
 

Allvin and JR FWIW didn’t seem to think he had done such a poor job that they couldn’t fix the “biiiig messss” everyone loves to go on about.  
 

I would say the only grand slam they’ve hit is Hronek (ballsy move) and home run would be being able to pull Kuzmenko.   Maybe throw Tocchet in there as well - but as good as those moves are, do they match bringing in Petey, Hughes, Demko and Miller?  Maybe close but not to me.  
 

The major difference is a string of good doubles and singles in bringing in Mikheyev, PDG, Joshua, Suter, Soucy, Cole and hopefully Bleuger.

 

No doubt Allvin is doing a fabulous job in a tight margin, but the fact he’s able to do it means either Benning left him a downright nasty core, or he didn’t screw up as badly as people say… or both. 

 

No doubt acquiring our present core was accomplished under the last regime. But I'd hope we'd find a few gems in eight years of mostly bottom feeding, and picking high. The accidental rebuild. Hell, you weren't allowed to even say the word rebuild.  Benning was trading away picks for plugs like there was no tomorrow, to give his boss a win-now playoff team!.  But he f.cked that plan up.  Over and  over.

 

Teams like the Rangers and Devils have each started a strip down and rebuild during Benning's reign where he always was quick in denying it here.  A couple of years into his contract the Devils parted ways with Lou Lamoriello, and the Rangers sent their letter to fans in 2018.  Both now are looking to compete, well into the future.

A traditional rebuild is easy.  If you have the patience and pockets.  It takes a very smart manager(s) to pull  of a successful retool on the fly, what Francesco ordered. But first time GM Jim was in over his head, unfortunately for fans.

 

Because you said it best..."Where he failed was surrounding them with a roster, prospect pool and cap flexibility to grow into a contender."  That's the real meat and potatoes work of a great GM.  Whether Benning had done it different. And we were building from the ground up, had luck in the lottery, or just made different choices, it may have been Hischier, or Dahlin, Tchuck, Nylander..?. leading our core. Drafting top players is not rocket science usually. Hughes the prime example of a no-brainer.  There is so much more to building a good franchise than that.

 

But I'll say good on Benning. He did some things right. He can claim the present day core got their beginning under his watch. He'll always have that.  I'll add, the acquisition of Miller, the great signing deal with Demko.

[stawns]

7 hours ago, Steamer4GM said:

And lots of ppl seem to forget that you make the Miller deal (and others like it) betting on the value of the first few making up for lack of value in the last few. Miller is, currently at least, demonstrating exactly how well a deal like this CAN work out and, by the end of the entire term, both sides have been compensated fairly for their contributions.

I don't think a single poster who wanted a Miller deal didnt think it'd be a good deal for the first third, at least.

[stawns]

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

No doubt acquiring our present core was accomplished under the last regime. But I'd hope we'd find a few gems in eight years of mostly bottom feeding, and picking high. The accidental rebuild. Hell, you weren't allowed to even say the word rebuild.  Benning was trading away picks for plugs like there was no tomorrow, to give his boss a win-now playoff team!.  But he f.cked that plan up.  Over and  over.

 

Teams like the Rangers and Devils have each started a strip down and rebuild during Benning's reign where he always was quick in denying it here.  A couple of years into his contract the Devils parted ways with Lou Lamoriello, and the Rangers sent their letter to fans in 2018.  Both now are looking to compete, well into the future.

A traditional rebuild is easy.  If you have the patience and pockets.  It takes a very smart manager(s) to pull  of a successful retool on the fly, what Francesco ordered. But first time GM Jim was in over his head, unfortunately for fans.

 

Because you said it best..."Where he failed was surrounding them with a roster, prospect pool and cap flexibility to grow into a contender."  That's the real meat and potatoes work of a great GM.  Whether Benning had done it different. And we were building from the ground up, had luck in the lottery, or just made different choices, it may have been Hischier, or Dahlin, Tchuck, Nylander..?. leading our core. Drafting top players is not rocket science usually. Hughes the prime example of a no-brainer.  There is so much more to building a good franchise than that.

 

But I'll say good on Benning. He did some things right. He can claim the present day core got their beginning under his watch. He'll always have that.  I'll add, the acquisition of Miller, the great signing deal with Demko.

Really, imo, where it fell apart for Benning was the Ferland/Sutter/Roussel/Beagle era and not because those weren't Sol d guys to add, but because they couldn't stay healthy.  

 

He wanted to add established vets to a very young core group of kids and all 4 of these guys (later added toffoli) should have been exactly what the doctor ordered.  Ferpand, you could say, was high risk, but the other 3 were dependable veterans who had relatively healthy careers.......for whatever reason, Vancouver was their kryptonite and they couldn't stay healthy and the organization simply didn't have the depth to cover their absences.  So Benning started making desperate moves to tty and keep the train moving forward......some good, some not so good.

 

Still, in the end, he provided the core of the current team and it's looking pretty darn good at the moment.

[-dlc-]

So if there's a power struggle that's when true captains LEAD the team through it. They step up and be vocal...or, show it on the ice by going to war for the team. Bo wasn't doing that and that's on him if someone else was. I like Bo and hate doing this (not sure why we have to keep rehashing it), but truth was we needed the change.

 

We all thought Bo could use his size/strength a bit more. And waited for him to do that, but it didn't materialize.

 

And he and JT were developing great on ice chemistry...so the soap opera stuff really doesn't fly with me.  Some here want to make it out like JT was some big room disrupter...if he was, it was in a good way.

[-dlc-]

14 minutes ago, stawns said:

I don't think a single poster who wanted a Miller deal didnt think it'd be a good deal for the first third, at least.

Which is setting things up for the future....setting a tone. Changing the culture. 

 

Don't just look at it in a vacuum and only about "age". The veteran leadership he'll provide is worth noting too.

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

So if there's a power struggle that's when true captains LEAD the team through it. They step up and be vocal...or, show it on the ice by going to war for the team. Bo wasn't doing that and that's on him if someone else was. I like Bo and hate doing this (not sure why we have to keep rehashing it), but truth was we needed the change.

 

We all thought Bo could use his size/strength a bit more. And waited for him to do that, but it didn't materialize.

 

And he and JT were developing great on ice chemistry...so the soap opera stuff really doesn't fly with me. 

 

Me neither. Bo wanted to move on as well and get overpaid somewhere else, which is awesome for him.

 

He did reject an offer as well. JT didn't. 

 

[stawns]

7 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

I hope you can listen to Linden at least since you don’t appreciate my expertise regarding Benning…

Are you referring to the "not sold on Petterson" story?  Most people weren't sold on Petterson........but he trusted his scouts, listened to them and made the pick based on them.  I'm not sure where your "gotcha" moment is there

[RookieFan]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:45 PM, canuck73_3 said:

@RookieFan Your Oilers are Dog Shit, actually nevermind that is an insult to dog shit that can actually be useful for fertilizer. your Oilers are literal cancer. 

Whoa, I am not a Oilers fan I live and cheer for Canucks. I am however a fan and student of the game of hockey and give credit where it's due. I think Oilers team has some of the best offensive talent in the game and a championship city history so blindly being anti Oilers doesn't look good, rather I aim to educate my self around the league to offer the most informed options on these forums.

[Bob Long]

8 minutes ago, RookieFan said:

Whoa, I am not a Oilers fan I live and cheer for Canucks. I am however a fan and student of the game of hockey and give credit where it's due. I think Oilers team has some of the best offensive talent in the game and a championship city history so blindly being anti Oilers doesn't look good, rather I aim to educate my self around the league to offer the most informed options on these forums.

 

Is it ok if I just dislike Alberta generally?

[canuck73_3]

43 minutes ago, RookieFan said:

Whoa, I am not a Oilers fan I live and cheer for Canucks. I am however a fan and student of the game of hockey and give credit where it's due. I think Oilers team has some of the best offensive talent in the game and a championship city history so blindly being anti Oilers doesn't look good, rather I aim to educate my self around the league to offer the most informed options on these forums.

Some of the best offensive talent and they have laid 3 eggs against the Canucks. I can dislike the Oilers without blindingly doing so. I have said that depth and defense is their issue since 2016, and here we are in 2023 and that is still their biggest issue. 

[kilgore]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

Are you referring to the "not sold on Petterson" story?  Most people weren't sold on Petterson........but he trusted his scouts, listened to them and made the pick based on them.  I'm not sure where your "gotcha" moment is there

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/linden-benning-wasnt-sold-on-pettersson-would-have-drafted-a-different-player-7806653

 

Not "most people",....  Jim Benning.  Most of Canucks scouting staff were literally pounding the table to get Jim's attention to change his mind from Glass to Pettersson.  "Trusting your scouts" is not some kind of heroic leadership, its what most GM's do, as they don't have the time to be scouting junior games across North America, and the world for that matter.

 

2016 was Brackett's first year in charge of amateur scouting, but Benning still bullied his way in to demand Juolevi,, like he did with Virtanen.   So Linden helped to alter the process so that the decision making could be more of a group effort. And thank gawd for Linden because Pettersson would not be playing here if that hadn't happened.  JB's one man rule, and his draft day hunches, came to an end.  Here's how we got our core:

 

Hughes was a no brainer. For any GM, even macaroni Jim.

 

Pettersson was picked DESPITE Benning, not because of him.  He was pressured by basically the whole department.  And that's why IMO he decided to "win" the imaginary power struggle in his head by firing Brackett soon after for daring to upstage him, and worse, prove him wrong. Judd was a gifted talent who had risen through the organization before JB was here, and promoted by Linden. His firing was to the detriment of the team.  But it was all about Jim.  Minnesota now has one of the top rated prospect pools.

 

Both Boeser and Demko were dug up and pushed by Brackett with his special expertise and knowledge of US Eastern league hockey teams. I guess credit to Benning for giving the green light.

 

Miller was all Benning.   The timing was suspect, as his age doesn't fit with the rest of the core, but I'm still glad we have him.  Ask me again in 4 years. But this is maybe the only major Benning trade I'm happy with.

 

And drafting....is the ONLY area Benning gets praise for, mostly because he failed in almost every other aspect of managing an NHL team.  If you want to hang your hat on "this core is Bennings core" fine. It was assembled under his watch. But he didn't do it on his own. If he had, there would have been more Virtanens, Juolevis, than Demkos and Petterssons. Looks like Linden saved the day again.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by kilgore

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/linden-benning-wasnt-sold-on-pettersson-would-have-drafted-a-different-player-7806653

 

Not "most people",....  Jim Benning.  Most of Canucks scouting staff were literally pounding the table to get Jim's attention to change his mind from Glass to Pettersson.  "Trusting your scouts" is not some kind of heroic leadership, its what most GM's do, as they don't have the time to be scouting junior games across North America, and the world for that matter.

 

2016 was Brackett's first year in charge of amateur scouting, but Benning still bullied his way in to demand Juolevi,, like he did with Virtanen.   So Linden helped to alter the process so that the decision making could be more of a group effort. And thank gawd for Linden because Pettersson would not be playing here if that hadn't happened.  JB's one man rule, and his draft day hunches, came to an end.  Here's how we got our core:

 

Hughes was a no brainer. For any GM, even macaroni Jim.

 

Pettersson was picked DESPITE Benning, not because of him.  He was pressured by basically the whole department.  And that's why IMO he decided to "win" the imaginary power struggle in his head by firing Brackett soon after for daring to upstage him, and worse, prove him wrong. Judd was a gifted talent who had risen through the organization before JB was here, and promoted by Linden. His firing was to the detriment of the team.  But it was all about Jim.  Minnesota now has one of the top rated prospect pools.

 

Both Boeser and Demko were dug up and pushed by Brackett with his special expertise and knowledge of US Eastern league hockey teams. I guess credit to Benning for giving the green light.

 

Miller was all Benning.   The timing was suspect, as his age doesn't fit with the rest of the core, but I'm still glad we have him.  Ask me again in 4 years. But this is maybe the only major Benning trade I'm happy with.

 

And drafting....is the ONLY area Benning gets praise for, mostly because he failed in almost every other aspect of managing an NHL team.  If you want to hang your hat on "this core is Bennings core" fine. It was assembled under his watch. But he didn't do it on his own. If he had, there would have been more Virtanens, Juolevis, than Demkos and Petterssons. Looks like Linden saved the day again.

 

 

and he did what good bosses do........he listened to the people he hired to do a job.

[kilgore]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

and he did what good bosses do........he listened to the people he hired to do a job.

 

Ha. I just realized there is a whole nutha thread on this very topic.

JB didn't listen to anybody in his first years here. Either with draft choices, or with listening to Gillis, Torts, and Linden about the need for a real rebuild.  But in the end, sure, after eating crow a few times, he relented and listened to more than the voice in his head.   Aaaaaaaand....then got rid of Linden and Brackett so he could go back to his two person palace with his old hockey buddy Weisbrod.  Scary to think where'd we be if JB didn't have Linden and Brackett here when they were.

[4petesake]

32 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

and he did what good bosses do........he listened to the people he hired to do a job.

Yes he did after changes were made to give others more input brought about by draft the year before. This is an indictment of the way JB ran the Juolevi draft. Improving the process made the Petey selection possible.

 

In a review of his team’s process leading up to the 2016 draft and then on draft day itself, president Trevor Linden came to conclude that a more cohesive approach to the Canucks’ draft strategy was needed, and the voices of Brackett and Dan Palango became much more influential.

 

A more regimented scouting system was put in place and players that interested Brackett and his staff got multiple followup viewings. It wasn’t enough to see a player once. This philosophy led to Brackett and his staff pushing hard for Elias Pettersson as the team’s first-round target in 2017.

 

“I wasn’t happy with the way our process was in 2016 and that was the first year Judd [Brackett] had taken over the reins and I did not like how our meetings went,” Linden said. “So in 2017, I really pushed hard to have Judd really step up and really run a robust-type meeting in that we can really put our thoughts and feelings on the table.”

[stawns]

2 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Some of the best offensive talent and they have laid 3 eggs against the Canucks. I can dislike the Oilers without blindingly doing so. I have said that depth and defense is their issue since 2016, and here we are in 2023 and that is still their biggest issue. 

 

no fan base knows better than Vancouver fans what it looks like when the wheels fall off and something is rotten in Denmark.