I Know It's Early Still But ....

[kilgore]

3 hours ago, iceman1964 said:

Without depth? When is this parade going to happen exactly? If your planning it this year or next, might want to standby to cancel it last minute, we've been through this scenario 3 times in our existence, and 3 times we had no depth, guess what happened because of it? 3 letdowns.. want to go through it a 4th time with the same result? 

 

Yeah, the "no depth" part is why Trevor, Torts, and Gillis all wanted to do it the right way, from scratch back then.  But once again we have developed a strong core, but no depth to sustain any success we may have. Because of a decade of putting keeping draft picks and developing them on the backburner.  It is what it is. Right now I'll take what I can get.  There is a tipping point when it makes more sense to give up on the rebuild, and go all in on a retool. When you have players entering their prime like we do. Which JR realized when he got here.  It now makes much more sense to go all in, and hope we can stock the farm with some miracle moves down the road.

 

Who knew only a year ago that all we needed was the right system and a coach with enough respect and gravitas to implement it.  Its kinda unfair to criticize those who still had doubts about the make up of the team before the season started. If Tocchet, and his other coaches, and a new hands-off attitude by Aquilini, had not happened, and we had much the same start as the last two seasons....the majority of CFF would be calling for a redo right now.   

 

No one saw quite this dramatic of a rise. Well I guess other than JR.  Didn't he promise a turnaround in 3 years into his tenure?  Where he implied he then would hand over the keys to PA to carry on?   

[OldFaithfulcap]

On 11/7/2023 at 2:37 PM, OldFaithfulcap said:

 

Here's the key thing though, the more wrong i am, the better the canucks do. Do you want me to hop on the bandwagon or do you need me on that wall waiting?

 

 

 

[OldFaithfulcap]

The last 5 games in November will be a great test. The ducks and sharks are playing better, the kraken beat us and the avs and knights are top tier. 

 

I still see worrying signs (pp, pk, boeser trending down, chaos myers) and i want to see how tocchet responds when things are not great, but in any case we are way ahead of where i thought.

 

I'm still not ready to sign off on the master plan and i still hate how badly we handled bruce and the tank kill but trying to push the doubts down and roll with it.  

[LillStrimma]

On 11/7/2023 at 5:26 PM, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

I will admit that I wanted to completely blow it up this past January.

 

-Pettersson for a 2023 1st + elite prospect

-Hughes for a 2023 1st + elite prospect

-Demko for a 2023 1st + elite prospect

-Kuzmenko for a 1st and a B prospect

-Miller for two 1sts (Pens deal that was offered at that time)

 

And then weaponize cap space for more pics and prospects.

 

I would have tanked harder than Michael Jackson at Neverland Ranch in order to land one of Bedard, Carlsson, or Fantilli.   

 

I would have kept OEL, Boeser, Schenn, Myers, etc. as part of the veteran leadership while grooming the elite prospects with other vets that we would have signed (which likely would have been to unfavorable term and money since they would have had all the bargaining power).  

 

Thankfully, we did NOT go this route.    

 

I honestly didn't anticipate this coming season turning out like this at ALL.  And I'm pleasantly surprised.  

Both Pettersson and Hughes are four 1sts 

Don’t sell low if you want to go that route.

[Jeremy Hronek]

20 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

Both Pettersson and Hughes are four 1sts 

Don’t sell low if you want to go that route.

 

True but keep in mind that this was for a stacked 2023 draft.  That + elite prospects (i.e. players that had a very impressive D+1 year and looked all but guaranteed to be Top 6 forwards/Top 4 d-men.....with potential to be much more.  But anyways, I'm glad we didn't go that route.  

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

True but keep in mind that this was for a stacked 2023 draft.  That + elite prospects (i.e. players that had a very impressive D+1 year and looked all but guaranteed to be Top 6 forwards/Top 4 d-men.....with potential to be much more.  But anyways, I'm glad we didn't go that route.  

You bet!   Maybe even get an EP out it!   QHs, doubtful.    

[Jeremy Hronek]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You bet!   Maybe even get an EP out it!   QHs, doubtful.    

 

At the time (January 2023), my hope was that we could tank hard enough to the point where we'd be guaranteed one of Bedard, Fantilli, or Carlsson.  That, combined with a 2023 1st + elite prospect for EACH of Pettersson, Hughes, Miller, and Demko, and perhaps a low 2023 1st for Kuzmenko, and you'd be looking at a MASSIVE potential to build a long term winner.  As far as Hughes went, one idea that was going through my mind at the time was that we'd trade with Detroit with Simon Edvinsson being one of the elite prospects coming back our way (they, in turn, would get to pair-up Hughes and Seider).  

 

On top of ALL that, we'd weaponize our new found cap space and bring in even more prospects with some vets signed to 2-3 years.  

 

It was nice to fantasize about at the time but I realized that it wasn't logistically realistic (i.e. Tocchet would have never accepted the job in the first place had we decided to go in that direction).  Anyways, I'm glad we did what we did.  I didn't anticipate our current level of play at all.

[IBatch]

58 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

At the time (January 2023), my hope was that we could tank hard enough to the point where we'd be guaranteed one of Bedard, Fantilli, or Carlsson.  That, combined with a 2023 1st + elite prospect for EACH of Pettersson, Hughes, Miller, and Demko, and perhaps a low 2023 1st for Kuzmenko, and you'd be looking at a MASSIVE potential to build a long term winner.  As far as Hughes went, one idea that was going through my mind at the time was that we'd trade with Detroit with Simon Edvinsson being one of the elite prospects coming back our way (they, in turn, would get to pair-up Hughes and Seider).  

 

On top of ALL that, we'd weaponize our new found cap space and bring in even more prospects with some vets signed to 2-3 years.  

 

It was nice to fantasize about at the time but I realized that it wasn't logistically realistic (i.e. Tocchet would have never accepted the job in the first place had we decided to go in that direction).  Anyways, I'm glad we did what we did.  I didn't anticipate our current level of play at all.

You for sure weren't the only one, also felt we were approaching the point where we'd have to consider that approach.   100% agreed with Button, if we didn't acquire Hronek, after trading Horvat, we might as well blow it up and start with trading one of EP or QHs.    So he was also of the same mind as well.    Myself, agreed with Button.   As for last years draft class.   Sure it looked great, Bedard of course being the big prize,  but once you take him and out, I didn't buy into the hype machine.    Seemed like the Bedard hype spilled over into the draft class itself.   

 

SJ tanked.   They had too.   The way things were last year ... don't blame anyone for thinking it was time to blow it all up and start all over.    It's still in the cards right now.   Teams got this year, and the following one, to pick a lane.    Allvin has created both options still.   Hronek and EP, won't have trade protection next season.   

 

Edit:  Right now, and for the last six weeks or so, feel Allvin needs to be looking, combing the entire league, for a JT Miller like deal to help out our defense.   Soucy and Hronek makes have the D-core assuming Hronek is signed (which i'm sure will happen) at only 3 guys ...  Still needs attention for sure.   Need at least four guys, preferably five, with Soucy as the last one.   If the cup is the goal and it should be right now. 

 

The team could probably get away with just one more top four D, one who's good enough to move up as well.   Or has the potential.    Hard to find the right guy.   Free agency isn't something we can realistically expect to finish the job.    We were lucky to win the Soucy sweepstakes, and that was just a bottom pairing acquisition, with the exact sort of intangibles we needed.   A massive win in my books.  

 

Zadarov will be the last luxury we can afford on the blue-line ... or something like that.   From free agency.   That still leaves one more.   Coles job goes to Zadarov.   Maybe Cole can be re-signed for another year.    That gives us QH Hronek, Zadarov and Cole playing his off-side, and Soucy.    My preference, is to find an under utilized D, on a good cap hit, in the 24-26 range.    AND sign Zadarov.    Then our D-core would be completed.   Like Button said about Hronek, and this absolutely applies to Willander,  these guys take time, even if they work out.  

 

See Willander as Allvins hope to help ease the OEL cap hit.   But he won't be playing top four, at best getting his feet wet at the end of next season with a few games.   Then we are into the worst couple years.   

 

Why we need to use our draft capital and futures this season, or next one at the latest.    And our first rounders, no longer are that appealing.   

Edited November 22, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

At the time (January 2023), my hope was that we could tank hard enough to the point where we'd be guaranteed one of Bedard, Fantilli, or Carlsson.  That, combined with a 2023 1st + elite prospect for EACH of Pettersson, Hughes, Miller, and Demko, and perhaps a low 2023 1st for Kuzmenko, and you'd be looking at a MASSIVE potential to build a long term winner.  As far as Hughes went, one idea that was going through my mind at the time was that we'd trade with Detroit with Simon Edvinsson being one of the elite prospects coming back our way (they, in turn, would get to pair-up Hughes and Seider).  

 

On top of ALL that, we'd weaponize our new found cap space and bring in even more prospects with some vets signed to 2-3 years.  

 

It was nice to fantasize about at the time but I realized that it wasn't logistically realistic (i.e. Tocchet would have never accepted the job in the first place had we decided to go in that direction).  Anyways, I'm glad we did what we did.  I didn't anticipate our current level of play at all.

Guess what I'm saying (above!) is the team can afford to trade futures, right now, and give the team a shot while we have Demko and QHs, and Miller doing their thing at well below market value based on their cap-hits.    EP too this year anyways.   Don't think it's going to matter much, if we used up two first rounders, now, if we end up flopping and blowing it up like Ottawa did with EK, Stone, Pageua, Zinbanejad, Hoffman etc.     Not on rentals this year.   Talking about a roster player, on a good cap hit, with term.   3-4 years ideally.   LHD or RHD.  We need a second pairing that isn't Cole and Friedman medium - long term.   Curiously Ottawa traded for Duchene.   Whoops that blew up on their faces.   But look at how quickly they turned it around.    They have their entire future core, locked in at max term, or around 8 a piece, all RFAs.    And have the same taxes we do.   

 

I fully expect Ottawa to have a long window as a result.     That would be exactly what we could of hoped for, if we did blow it up last year.    Which of course we can still do next year if things go off the rails.    Don't think they will.  So the other side is to finish building,  using futures.   At some point a team does need to go for it.   Our team is good.   Just missing 3 key ingredients.   A Jeannott (can see why they used an entire draft class to replace basically what they had in Marroon),  a 3C who can move up (think Sutter but a healthy version), and a rock solid top four D, think McDonagh when they snatched him up from NYR.    And that's assuming Willander works out.   Zadarov for sure is worth a trade and sign.    It's just too bad he's in CAL.    Maybe we could sign both Zadarov and Tanev in off the season that could work too.   But would like to get a deal done this year, for playoff experience and familiarity, and then go for it the following one. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by IBatch

[OldFaithfulcap]

 

[OldFaithfulcap]

Every time...sigh

[OldFaithfulcap]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:56 PM, OldFaithfulcap said:

The last 5 games in November will be a great test. The ducks and sharks are playing better, the kraken beat us and the avs and knights are top tier. 

 

I still see worrying signs (pp, pk, boeser trending down, chaos myers) and i want to see how tocchet responds when things are not great, but in any case we are way ahead of where i thought.

 

I'm still not ready to sign off on the master plan and i still hate how badly we handled bruce and the tank kill but trying to push the doubts down and roll with it.  

 

Well 2-3 over those and against the ducks we only played well for a period.

 

I get hopeful too easily but things are trending down. Boeser is still scoring but so many other aspects look worrying. My fear about us sacrificing offence for defence is re-surfacing.

 

Zadarov will help but pettey's funk is just killing the line and us. If it's an injury then give him a rest. I do feel he's pissed off at the overcoaching and kuz treatment but even still he showed up last season.

 

Demko is tired from carrying the team and teams are really starting to close off hughes's skating lanes which makes us dependent on miller finding boeser. 

 

The easy answer is to fix the pp and try new lines but we'll see. As pettersson goes, so do the canucks.

 

 

 

[TheGuardian]

I think Rutherford and Allvin have a couple more moves yet. Pretty sure they HAVE to once Soucy comes back.

 

They picked up Zadorov

There has been tons of forum chat about wanting Bear, but he will cost more of the cap.

 

Why not consider Barrie? He used to play with Zadorov, his is a RHD, a local guy and on an expiring contract just when the Canucks will need added cap space. Barrie and his agent have also been given permission to investigate a trade.

 

Here is my take, Boeser for Barrie straight up. Boeser plays the position left open with Horvat's departure hence all the PP goals. Replace him with Kuzmenko, Podkolzin, Lafferty, there is quite a list. It isn't like Boeser blasts down the ice deking out other players or leaves a goalie gaping as the puck rifles past him anymore.

 

Save the 6.6 mil, use on Barrie's 4.5 saving 2.1 mil. Enough for Soucy to come back and/or attempting to get another forward that is faster or meaner or younger or has a less injured past or wants out from the team he is on or signing Kessel and/or Perry or Bumping up Hoglander or...the idea being there are options to Boeser. When Horvat was traded there was lot's of "where are the goals going to come from?" They came didn't they? A player that couldn't be traded because of a poor year and a bloated contract even with his agent's help, steps into Horvat's position on the PP and now has a greater value than just 6 months ago when all were trying to move on.

 

Bear might even be better than Barrie now BUT the added cap space tips the scales in Barrie's favour.

 

But there could be others out there, the Canucks just happen to be a team willing to make deals and have to improve the team this year to scratch EP's itch at least. Even letting Barrie walk is still a big plus just for the cap space Leaving only one more bloated contract to deal with, Garland's.

 

Maybe another trade very soon, before the seasonal freeze

[Spur1]

55 minutes ago, TheGuardian said:

I think Rutherford and Allvin have a couple more moves yet. Pretty sure they HAVE to once Soucy comes back.

 

They picked up Zadorov

There has been tons of forum chat about wanting Bear, but he will cost more of the cap.

 

Why not consider Barrie? He used to play with Zadorov, his is a RHD, a local guy and on an expiring contract just when the Canucks will need added cap space. Barrie and his agent have also been given permission to investigate a trade.

 

Here is my take, Boeser for Barrie straight up. Boeser plays the position left open with Horvat's departure hence all the PP goals. Replace him with Kuzmenko, Podkolzin, Lafferty, there is quite a list. It isn't like Boeser blasts down the ice deking out other players or leaves a goalie gaping as the puck rifles past him anymore.

 

Save the 6.6 mil, use on Barrie's 4.5 saving 2.1 mil. Enough for Soucy to come back and/or attempting to get another forward that is faster or meaner or younger or has a less injured past or wants out from the team he is on or signing Kessel and/or Perry or Bumping up Hoglander or...the idea being there are options to Boeser. When Horvat was traded there was lot's of "where are the goals going to come from?" They came didn't they? A player that couldn't be traded because of a poor year and a bloated contract even with his agent's help, steps into Horvat's position on the PP and now has a greater value than just 6 months ago when all were trying to move on.

 

Bear might even be better than Barrie now BUT the added cap space tips the scales in Barrie's favour.

 

But there could be others out there, the Canucks just happen to be a team willing to make deals and have to improve the team this year to scratch EP's itch at least. Even letting Barrie walk is still a big plus just for the cap space Leaving only one more bloated contract to deal with, Garland's.

 

Maybe another trade very soon, before the seasonal freeze

No thanks. 

[HKSR]

2 hours ago, TheGuardian said:

I think Rutherford and Allvin have a couple more moves yet. Pretty sure they HAVE to once Soucy comes back.

 

They picked up Zadorov

There has been tons of forum chat about wanting Bear, but he will cost more of the cap.

 

Why not consider Barrie? He used to play with Zadorov, his is a RHD, a local guy and on an expiring contract just when the Canucks will need added cap space. Barrie and his agent have also been given permission to investigate a trade.

 

Here is my take, Boeser for Barrie straight up. Boeser plays the position left open with Horvat's departure hence all the PP goals. Replace him with Kuzmenko, Podkolzin, Lafferty, there is quite a list. It isn't like Boeser blasts down the ice deking out other players or leaves a goalie gaping as the puck rifles past him anymore.

 

Save the 6.6 mil, use on Barrie's 4.5 saving 2.1 mil. Enough for Soucy to come back and/or attempting to get another forward that is faster or meaner or younger or has a less injured past or wants out from the team he is on or signing Kessel and/or Perry or Bumping up Hoglander or...the idea being there are options to Boeser. When Horvat was traded there was lot's of "where are the goals going to come from?" They came didn't they? A player that couldn't be traded because of a poor year and a bloated contract even with his agent's help, steps into Horvat's position on the PP and now has a greater value than just 6 months ago when all were trying to move on.

 

Bear might even be better than Barrie now BUT the added cap space tips the scales in Barrie's favour.

 

But there could be others out there, the Canucks just happen to be a team willing to make deals and have to improve the team this year to scratch EP's itch at least. Even letting Barrie walk is still a big plus just for the cap space Leaving only one more bloated contract to deal with, Garland's.

 

Maybe another trade very soon, before the seasonal freeze

You'd trade away the league's top goal scorer for Barrie????

[TheGuardian]

14 minutes ago, HKSR said:

You'd trade away the league's top goal scorer for Barrie????

More to sign Pettersson. Cap space, cap, the cap.

It just so happens the Preds told him he could shop himself. 

The opportunity to complete a trade that couldn't happen last year due to poor numbers and more term just was gifted by the hockey gods.

 

The hockey gods looked down on the Canucks and see they still could use a right handed defence man and the one they want will not be available until summer, they also took note that the Canucks will need more cap space for next year.

 

So they gifted the Canucks with a right handed defenceman that also has played with the other gift, they know each other making the gift even better because they can play together right away. The right handed defender can go away and the team is gifted with an additional 6.6 million to sign the player they really want, Tanev, extra cap to sign the Golden Child and maybe help the team have greater success immediately. They also took in account the player, one that would not mind playing where he was born.

 

BB less than a 2 hour flight home and in the same time zone.

 

The hockey gods are not finished with the Canucks, there have been lots of prayers to catch up on.

 

But here is just one that addresses 3 important needs of the Canucks and two for the player

Even hockey gods know defence wins championships

Edited December 2, 2023 by TheGuardian

[HKSR]

37 minutes ago, TheGuardian said:

More to sign Pettersson. Cap space, cap, the cap.

It just so happens the Preds told him he could shop himself. 

The opportunity to complete a trade that couldn't happen last year due to poor numbers and more term just was gifted by the hockey gods.

 

The hockey gods looked down on the Canucks and see they still could use a right handed defence man and the one they want will not be available until summer, they also took note that the Canucks will need more cap space for next year.

 

So they gifted the Canucks with a right handed defenceman that also has played with the other gift, they know each other making the gift even better because they can play together right away. The right handed defender can go away and the team is gifted with an additional 6.6 million to sign the player they really want, Tanev, extra cap to sign the Golden Child and maybe help the team have greater success immediately. They also took in account the player, one that would not mind playing where he was born.

 

BB less than a 2 hour flight home and in the same time zone.

 

The hockey gods are not finished with the Canucks, there have been lots of prayers to catch up on.

 

But here is just one that addresses 3 important needs of the Canucks and two for the player

Even hockey gods know defence wins championships

If this is all about cap and we are disregarding the fact Boeser is the NHL goal leader, then dump Pettersson for cap space.  

[TheGuardian]

39 minutes ago, HKSR said:

If this is all about cap and we are disregarding the fact Boeser is the NHL goal leader, then dump Pettersson for cap space.  

Is he your mate? Do you hate Pettersson that much? Considering the cap space is to sign Pettersson. You just stated your preference is Boeser over Pettersson.

It is obvious you are just there to watch ice skating I guess.

 

But keep on preaching the love for Boeser. I don't think doing your real intelligence justice though in this case.

 

I am not discounting the number of goals just how they are achieved and the contribution outside of JUST scoring goals.

I could care less about if the trade, when finally completed is about Barrie, Mantha or the mascot. And that doesn't change that I think Boeser is doing the absolute best he can nor has the value of most of the team anymore, the space used is more valuable. But he asked for a trade last year, didn't happen yet. 

 

I just happen to think that players like Pettersson, Hronek, Demko contribute much more than 6 five on five goals to team success. And the dap has value far beyond just the space. It influences team plans and abilities.

 

So take away his empty net goals and where is the team? 92? Or half his PP time. Still also consider there would be someone else playing those spots then. 

 

Do you see something nobody else does?

Edited December 2, 2023 by TheGuardian

[HKSR]

11 minutes ago, TheGuardian said:

Is he your mate? Do you hate Pettersson that much? Considering the cap space is to sign Pettersson. You just stated your preference is Boeser over Pettersson.

It is obvious you are just there to watch ice skating I guess.

 

But keep on preaching the love for Boeser. I don't think doing your real intelligence justice though in this case.

 

I am not discounting the number of goals just how they are achieved and the contribution outside of JUST scoring goals.

I could care less about if the trade, when finally completed is about Barrie, Mantha or the mascot. And that doesn't change that I think Boeser is doing the absolute best he can nor has the value of most of the team anymore, the space used is more valuable. But he asked for a trade last year, didn't happen yet. 

 

I just happen to think that players like Pettersson, Hronek, Demko contribute much more than 6 five on five goals to team success. And the dap has value far beyond just the space. It influences team plans and abilities.

 

So take away his empty net goals and where is the team? 92? Or half his PP time. Still also consider there would be someone else playing those spots then. 

 

Do you see something nobody else does?

Lol just stop man.  You're insulting my intelligence when you're on here spouting off about trading Boeser for Barrie???  Really?  Barrie is your answer for our d core 

[TheGuardian]

14 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Lol just stop man.  You're insulting my intelligence when you're on here spouting off about trading Boeser for Barrie???  Really?  Barrie is your answer for our d core 

You missed the part where I posted I really don't care it is about the cap space. Barrie, Mantha, team mascot as long as it saves some of the extra 10 million in cap space needed  for Tanev or some other top dman with size

 

That was the beauty of Barrie. Save over 2 mil immediately, bury him in the minors for depth, save another mil. You see Barrie grew up here so Abby or Van, won't matter except to give the Canucks millions in cap space to sign other opportunities. Like Van got Zadorov because of cap space.

The Canucks need a partner to get rid of cap space. Guaranteed contracts and all that but that leaves a cost attached.

 

Do the Canucks need cap space? Pretty sure the answer is yes

With OEL's buyout cap hits a lot more than 3 million more.

Do the Canucks need a RHD? Pretty sure the answer is yes

Are the Canucks a finished product? Pretty sure the answer is no.

Is there anyway to cheat the cap rules? Nope

Is there enough cap space to have Soucy come off LTIR? No.

 

Funny thing is the Preds won't take Boeser unless there are addons. ;( 

Edited December 2, 2023 by TheGuardian

[HKSR]

37 minutes ago, TheGuardian said:

You missed the part where I posted I really don't care it is about the cap space. Barrie, Mantha, team mascot as long as it saves some of the extra 10 million in cap space needed  for Tanev or some other top dman with size

 

That was the beauty of Barrie. Save over 2 mil immediately, bury him in the minors for depth, save another mil. You see Barrie grew up here so Abby or Van, won't matter except to give the Canucks millions in cap space to sign other opportunities. Like Van got Zadorov because of cap space.

The Canucks need a partner to get rid of cap space. Guaranteed contracts and all that but that leaves a cost attached.

 

Do the Canucks need cap space? Pretty sure the answer is yes

With OEL's buyout cap hits a lot more than 3 million more.

Do the Canucks need a RHD? Pretty sure the answer is yes

Are the Canucks a finished product? Pretty sure the answer is no.

Is there anyway to cheat the cap rules? Nope

Is there enough cap space to have Soucy come off LTIR? No.

 

Funny thing is the Preds won't take Boeser unless there are addons. ;( 

We don't need cap space.  We need goals.  

[TheGuardian]

Something happening today at noon?

Hoglander benched half way through the third period?

Irwin sent down opening up a contract roster spot

Rutherford/Allvin are all in now and don't wait!

Tampa got reamed and turmoil on the bench.

[Rekker]

17 hours ago, TheGuardian said:

Even hockey gods know defence wins championships

Not sure I understand your point of view, but if it involves acquiring Barrie, No. Barrie doesn't play defence. He's similar to Bouchard, both terrible at D. Just, no.

[TheGuardian]

31 minutes ago, Rekker said:

Not sure I understand your point of view, but if it involves acquiring Barrie, No. Barrie doesn't play defence. He's similar to Bouchard, both terrible at D. Just, no.

How about Cernak? Or?

 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by TheGuardian

[Rekker]

4 minutes ago, TheGuardian said:

How about Cernak?

Would love to add Cernak. Absolutely.