[Article] Canucks: Trevor Linden slams former GM Jim Benning in Sportsnet 650 interview

[iinatcc]

29 minutes ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

It's not on "excuse." Its reality.

We simply cannot ignore the affects of the flat cap on a team that was betting on the cap going up as projected, especially for that type of rebuild approach ownership demanded. It's not the same as being some team at the top pushing for cups that miss out on a rental or two. The team was at it's most vulnerable. Some self inflected but mostly unforeseeable force majuere. It's simply did not affect every team equally.

 

Secondly, if they had foreknowledge, they wouldn't have signed certain guys to certain deals in the first place. Eg. Tyler Myers 6x6. Projections change. The % of cap that contract would eat would be far less over time.

 

Butterfly effect, dude.

 

Every team faced the same issues and every team was betting of the cap to go up before Covid happened. 

 

But the part I bolded is the reason why it hit Vancouver more than any other team. And this is the heart of the problem Benning's lack of discipline and structure when making decisions. Even when he signed Beagle and Roussel there were concerns of future cap issues down the line especially on the term. 

 

And this is what doomed Benning his lack of control in ensuring the team's future. It doesn't have to be covid the reason why you do this. 

 

Let's take one example Canucks signed Roussel at 4 x 3 Million. Good player but Tampa signed Patrick Maroon at one year at $900,000. In a general scenese both players were profiling similarly when they signed the respective deals. Did Canucks have to give Roussel that kind of deal? 

 

Another example (which happened after covid) was one of Benning's last signings Tucker Poolman at 4 x 2.5 Million. Even without his concussion issues I doubt why this contract makes sense. Especially when we compare Allvin signing Ian Cole for 1 x 3 Million both having similar expected roles on the D Core. 

 

Another example is the Tanner Pearson extension. This one is an interesting one because it's the one that, based on reports, upset some teams because Benning giving Pearson the extension he did was seen as an overpayment (considering the flat cap) and it forced other teams (Philly and LA is what I remember) to pay more to extend their Top 9 forward. When you do something that other teams saw an overpayment then it's a problem.  

 

[conquestofbaguettes]

12 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

 

I didn't say her was a core guy. I said supplemental player. 

 

So not Toffoli but Jay Beagle, Antoine Roussel, Brandon Sutter, and Loui Eriksson? 

Exactly. Supplemental.  Not top of priority list. flat cap with larger needs elsewhere and limited funds to do it. Bye bye toffoli.

 

The other names you listed aren't relevant here. Different players at different times signed for different reasons under different conditions.

[conquestofbaguettes]

Just now, iinatcc said:

his is the heart of the problem Benning's lack of discipline and structure when making decisions.

Because he was supposed to predict a flat cap? Sure.

[KoreanHockeyFan]

4 minutes ago, Nucker67 said:

Throwing the previous GM under the bus like that, pretty cutthroat. Is he looking for a job or something? 

 

 

 

Sounds like he had an NDA that expired. Took the opportunity to promote his health companies, but in exchange, media outlets probably wanted him to spill the beans a little for some content. 

[Riddikulus]

4 minutes ago, Nucker67 said:

Throwing the previous GM under the bus like that, pretty cutthroat. Is he looking for a job or something? 

 

 

What was actually cutthroat was Benning going to ownership and agreeing to freeze Linden out of the decision making, forcing Linden to resign. If Linden wanted to keep his job he would have just gone along with the plan and stayed in his seat as long as Benning managed to.

[iinatcc]

Just now, conquestofbaguettes said:

Because he was supposed to predict a flat cap? Sure.

Well not exactly, but you always should allow yourself cap flexibility. If other teams could do it so they didn't suffer when the pandemic occurred, I am sure Benning could have.

 

 

[Nucker67]

13 minutes ago, Riddikulus said:

What was actually cutthroat was Benning going to ownership and agreeing to freeze Linden out of the decision making, forcing Linden to resign. If Linden wanted to keep his job he would have just gone along with the plan and stayed in his seat as long as Benning managed to.

 

Benning was the GM. Linden was a feel-good signing during tough times. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 minutes ago, Nucker67 said:

 

Benning was the GM. Linden was a feel-good signing during tough times. 

Benning was mostly a feel bad GM during his tenure 

[DSVII]

On 11/12/2023 at 11:18 AM, conquestofbaguettes said:

And you thought wrong. 

 

Trevor had an idealistic rebuild plan and ownership said no. That's what happened. Nobody tried to get anyone fired. Trevor got himself fired.

 

 

Trevor was advocating following a rebuild strategy most of the league follows, and cup contenders have successfully implemented. So I'd say Trev was arguing not trying to get cute  and just tear off the bandaid, rather than idealistic and sell playoffs to the market while retooling.

What's idealistic is this interpretation of the events for Benning. I'm not diving into this though, it's been hashed through enough.

[LillStrimma]

1 hour ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

Which isn't true.

 

Gillis' great works are vastly overstated.  Nonis and Burke built that bulk of that 2011 team we all love.  And Benning was far from the worst.

I say look at the Oilers. 
They got McDavid and Draisatl and can’t get out of the mud.

So Gillis and Allvin is clearly above Benning and the one that is/was GM over the Oilers.

[kilgore]

57 minutes ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

And then there was a pandemic lol. Yeah.

 

Total conjecture

Nonsense.

No. They had a plan. One that people simply fail to recognize.

 

You should listen to the interview with former Canucks agm Chris gear I posted earlier

 

Which fails to see team for what they were and the purpose of even rebuilding the way they did.

 

"Stay competitive" and keep asses in the seats while also rebuilding for the future.  Dual goals.   All those overpaid FAs didn't matter in the long run.  Open roster roles.

 

 

The problem I see with so many is this idea that "a rebuild is like this. And if you don't do it exactly like this you're doing it wrong."   All these preconceived notions and judgements about how and what you have to do or its bad.   Its all bs.

Sure did.

Was doing a lot ownership liked for a long time.  Guess what that was.

 

Which is BS. We didn't get much for those players.   Except who. Kesler? And he tied our hands.   Gillis was wrong.  They were giving Hank and Danny another shot because the org felt indebted to them. It was never a realistic plan on Gillis' part.  Nor on Trevor Linden and tanking.   Idealism and nothing but.

 

Smyl didn't say that. You're sure spinning it that way though.

 

And much like management before Gillis, with Nonis and Burke, the heavy lifting was done before him. Same goes for Rutherford and Allvin. THANK YOU BENNING FOR OUR CORE.

 

The core that JR and PA refused to blow up. Lol. And no matter what anyone says Bennings fingerprints are all over this club even still today. In good ways and bad.

 

Wow.  What is it with some still hell bent on defending one of, if not the, worst GM in Canucks history? 

 

 

[LillStrimma]

49 minutes ago, Nucker67 said:

 

Benning was the GM. Linden was a feel-good signing during tough times. 

What do you think Benning was then? 
Daddys little boy got a sheltered job as a GM. 
So be honest. Without his dad Benning wouldn’t have a shot at the career he had.

[iinatcc]

20 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

What do you think Benning was then? 
Daddys little boy got a sheltered job as a GM. 
So be honest. Without his dad Benning wouldn’t have a shot at the career he had.

 

Benning probably also got the job because of his association with the Boston Bruins. At the time everything was all about the Boston model and I think there were people selling Benning as the architect of the 2011 Cup Winning team. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

10 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

 

Benning probably also got the job because of his association with the Boston Bruins. At the time everything was all about the Boston model and I think there were people selling Benning as the architect of the 2011 Cup Winning team. 

Well he played a part.  Just not the main part.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

39 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

What do you think Benning was then? 
Daddys little boy got a sheltered job as a GM. 
So be honest. Without his dad Benning wouldn’t have a shot at the career he had.

Couldn't find a head coach for the club after *SEVEN YEARS* (Jim Benning).

[LillStrimma]

1 hour ago, iinatcc said:

 

Benning probably also got the job because of his association with the Boston Bruins. At the time everything was all about the Boston model and I think there were people selling Benning as the architect of the 2011 Cup Winning team. 

Well, Benning had a lot if so called fans here that acted as spin doctors to control what were said. 
So the selling part you talked about might be something his father taught him. 
 

[iinatcc]

3 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

Well, Benning had a lot if so called fans here that acted as spin doctors to control what were said. 
So the selling part you talked about might be something his father taught him. 
 

 

Haha, yeah. 

 

That is another good point.

 

I think many here had Gillis Withdrawal when he got fired. Gillis always tried to act like the smartest guy in the room or a know it all, so when he left, people were charmed with Benning's folksy small town Elmer Fudd like personality. Many here were tired of Gillis that people were relieved that the next GM was the exact opposite being an Anti-Analytics meat and potatoes loving GM. 

 

I guess this is the also reason why many here like Rutherford and Allvin since their approach to running the organization is opposite of Benning. 

 

 

 

 

[LillStrimma]

If I see anyone more bashing Linden for answering questions I just say Ferland and you should crawl back from under the rock you came from in shame.

 

Ferland is the stupidiest thing I ever heard a GM do in any sport.

[The Duke]

18 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

All of the above is speculative.  

 

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Benning wanted Glass over Pettersson.  

 

There is evidence to suggest that Benning may have wanted to trade his 2017 1OA as part of a packaged deal to land Makar or Heiskanen (since Benning openly stated that he loved the elite defensemen in that draft), but no other evidence of anything else.  

Yeah.  It was also reported the club also liked Dubois in the Juolevi draft and rumour had it, would have taken Dobson if Hughes wasn’t on the board in 2018. 
 

The takeaway for me is that they were generally dialled in on most drafts - but the margin for boom or bust is pretty thin outside the top 2-3 but still in the top 10. 

[filthy animal]

6 hours ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

Because he was supposed to predict a flat cap? Sure.

Yeah because the 31 other gms had crystal balls and knew that a pandemic and a flat cap was coming. Clearly Jimbo didnt get the memo

 

 

[Ballisticsports]

Is it any wonder we get same old cookie cutter replies, instead of ones that are honest ?

 

I mean even the title of this thread saying TL slams? (sounds like media click bait)

Just being honest and open while not affecting anyone associated with the team

Trevor didn't need the job then or now

A lot of what TL had said has been released before

 

In 2016

JB stated we could be an elite team in 2018 (2 yrs before the pandemic, that also affected EVERY CLUB)

TL believed and said it was more 4-5 years

I think Aqua had said I want to go with JB plan and with TL only taking this job because his heart was in this city and the team, along with running his own  business, stepped down at that point

 

I know 6 long term season ticket holders that lost all interest under JB and still won't even watch a game (funny one is going Wed. and didn't want too and never responded for awhile,, hoping her gf with season tickets found someone else to take) I myself was waivering before management change, the game was on in the background and I wasn't really involved in it- The owner, management, players didn't look invested and I was feeling the same myself

 

Thank goodness we have confident management now without ego's, that do not want yes people and work together as a team, and now the players are as well too

Much more enjoyable 

[AnthonyG]

On 11/12/2023 at 2:24 PM, iinatcc said:

 

Um on this Toffoli is in his 3rd team because the teams he was apart of were either bad, he refused to resign, or both. 

None of this had anything to do with Toffoli per se considering his point production at a 4 x 4.25 Mil contract. 

Toffoli has always been a supplental player and a good value one all things considered.

 

The fact that Benning couldn't pay a Top 6 winger on that contract but over pay a 4th line Center 4 x 3 million, is just bad management sense.

Aaaand that Toffoli extension would have cut into our cap space and we would have had a much more difficult time signing Mikheyev to get Kuzmenko.

who would you rather? Pearson… orrr Mikheyev who enticed Kuzmenko. 
Benning cut bait with guys who would be costing us a fair chunk in a stagnated cap climate. We also had guys like Petey, Hughes, Demko, Miller and Boeser who all are contracts we had to think of. Some times you just have to walk away. Calgary let Gaudreau walk. We went with shorter deals instead of getting stuck with longer contracts in desperate and uncertain times

[iinatcc]

2 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Aaaand that Toffoli extension would have cut into our cap space and we would have had a much more difficult time signing Mikheyev to get Kuzmenko.

who would you rather? Pearson… orrr Mikheyev who enticed Kuzmenko. 
Benning cut bait with guys who would be costing us a fair chunk in a stagnated cap climate. We also had guys like Petey, Hughes, Demko, Miller and Boeser who all are contracts we had to think of. Some times you just have to walk away. Calgary let Gaudreau walk. We went with shorter deals instead of getting stuck with longer contracts in desperate and uncertain times

 

How about Toffoli and not Eriksson, Sutter, Beagle, and Roussel?

 

4.25 Million or 16 Million

[AnthonyG]

24 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

 

How about Toffoli and not Eriksson, Sutter, Beagle, and Roussel?

 

4.25 Million or 16 Million

Hey how about we dont sign experienced veterans, guys who have won a cup or been around long enough to share valuable experiences with the youth and lets go full Deadmonton Coilers. Toss youth into the fire year after year and not provide sheltered development.

Had it not been for the WCE and a guy by the name of Mats Sundin the twins wouldn’t have been the players they were. The twins struggled behind the WCE and were being considered on the verge of being busts.
 

Beagle, Roussel, Holtby, Miller, Schenn etc was imperative to bring in quality veterans to take care of the dzone and PK duties to allow youth to focus on offence and slowly learn the defensive side of the game. It was all about sheltered development at the NHL level. 

[iinatcc]

4 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Hey how about we dont sign experienced veterans, guys who have won a cup or been around long enough to share valuable experiences with the youth and lets go full Deadmonton Coilers. Toss youth into the fire year after year and not provide sheltered development.

Had it not been for the WCE and a guy by the name of Mats Sundin the twins wouldn’t have been the players they were. The twins struggled behind the WCE and were being considered on the verge of being busts.
 

Beagle, Roussel, Holtby, Miller, Schenn etc was imperative to bring in quality veterans to take care of the dzone and PK duties to allow youth to focus on offence and slowly learn the defensive side of the game. It was all about sheltered development at the NHL level. 

 

Except Mats Sundin is a Hall of Famer and still a Star player when he joined the Canucks. 

 

As for the Oilers didn't they try this strategy with Andrew Ference? How did that work out with the Hall, RNH, and Eberle core?

 

With regards to the Veterans the one the young guys looked up to was Tanev and the organization made him walk. If the guys I mentioned were such integral to the development of the young guys then why did 2021 turn out to be a disaster?

 

Besides I had no problem bringing in those players to the organization. It's overpaying them either in cap space, term, or even both that is the problem. When the organization is paying 3 mill for 4 years for Roussel and Tampa is paying 900,000 for one year for Maroon. Then something is wrong with the Organizations salary structure when signing players. 

 

Like I said before I like Beagle and Roussel but not for the contract Benning offered. A 4th line center taking 3 Million in cap space for 4 years?

 

And that is the heart of the problem and my point. Benning overpaid for players instead of offering a contract in market value.