The mysterious drastic decline of Jake Virtanen

[Smashian Kassian]

I always wondered if the Virtanen pick was influenced by the positive PR getting of a local kid, that was coming right off the heels of that disasterious Torts year where the crowd chanted for the GMs head, & pitchforks were out for ownership aswell. Bringing a local "PWF" played well at the time, especially after the many years of local kids like Lucic & Gallagher slipping through the cracks. 

 

Because the pick was bad at the time imo. They had no elite offensive talent coming as their top offensive players aged, & their were 2 potential elite offensive players in Nylander+Ehlers on the board. There were concerns about Virtanens upside at the time, not just hindsight.

 

So what went wrong? He was rushed due to the fact he couldn't go to the AHL, he was so physically dominant in Jr it was time to move on but he wasn't an NHL player. Maybe it got to his head being an NHL player so early, when there wasn't much of an internal standard around here to push players. He never seemed to have a drive to push/improve himself like we saw with Petey/Hughes.

 

I do think Jake was a case where an exception to play in the AHL earlier would've benefitted him. 

 

He came to 2 training camps out of shape in that 19-20 year where he looked to be 'turning the corner', nvm the other years. He was never truly a PWF (never cut to the net, rarely used his size) it just wasn't ever his game. He was a low IQ scorer with size+speed. And ultimately he never took his career seriously.

 

I always thought they should've traded him around 2016/2017 when he still had value.

 

[MattJVD]

I don't think he ever learned, despite a lot of effort from coaches and team-mates, what he had to do every day off the ice to be a pro. In the gym and in the kitchen particularly, but a little bit of the systems work too. He was scouted as "not having a particularly high hockey IQ" (and arguably IQ in general). His size and talent were enough to overcome that in junior, but not as much in the NHL.

 

He did have that decent season of 38 points and I honestly thought he was getting making good progress, but that seemed to all come undone with the Covid shut-down and he was not in good shape when the bubble playoffs came around.

 

For all his physical gifts with shooting and top end speed, I do think he was genetically predisposed to carry a lot of weight. He had to work particularly hard to be in playing shape and keep up his endurance, and he wasn't a particularily hard worker. 

 

Kinda like that straight-A high school kid who just found all the material really easy. They never learned how to study, they learned that just sitting in class was all they needed to get an A. Then they get to Univsersity and fail. They may have stretches where they really buckle down and do well in a semester, but then default back to what they did in high-school. It's hard to break habbits that have brought you success in your formative years. 

[PureQuickness]

Virtanen was absolutely immature. But I wouldn't be surprised that after many years of being out of the NHL and struggling to 'live the dream' that he'll learn some tough life lessons from this. He's no longer a kid anymore now, but he's still a person, even if he is a very flawed one.

 

What an absolute waste of an opportunity, of course.

[DSVII]

All tools. No toolbox.

 

The rumor was it was pushed by Aquilini but at the very least probably a situation our scouting staff took a look and thought "we can fix him." Cause the ceiling was that high and we were hoping for that Lucic mold player

[viking mama]

On 11/14/2023 at 6:26 AM, SV. said:

The Virtanen pick was a product of its time, unfortunately.

Rather than looking at the build of the Blackhawks or Penguins, people decided that the Bruins and Kings were better to emulate.  "Built for the playoffs" is what they said.

Then, you factor in the context.  Canucks went from a playoff position in January to a near bottom-five finish by the time April rolled around, Luongo left the team controversially, Kesler all but confirmed to be leaving, Gillis getting fired, etc., that with Virtanen being a local kid and a fan of the team, he could "stabilize" some of the chaos that was ongoing.

I don't think the core issue was selecting him over a Nylander/Ehlers/Larkin as evidenced by the fact that many teams were hoodwinked in that period of time with size.  Michael Dal Colle, Nick Ritchie, and Brendan Perlini all come to mind as players who went high but didn't reach the heights they were meant to be reaching.  An argument could also be made for Sam Bennett and Lawson Crouse, although, they have become much more effective players in recent seasons and found their niches, especially in the case of Bennett.

Where the main issue lies is in sticking by Virtanen for so long when there was proof that he simply wasn't good enough.  When it became clear he wasn't a legit fit for the top six by the end of 18/19 and could maybe be effective in an energy role going forward, that's when he should have been pushed down the pecking order and treated as such.  Choosing to sign him over Tyler Toffoli, an actual proven scorer, for example, caused needless damage and harm to the state of the team.  The fact that it took off-ice issues to finally part ways rather than on-ice play speaks so much to some of the sheer incompetence that was going on towards the end of the Benning tenure.

^This. 
 

Virtanen was not properly vetted for intelligence, vulnerable vices or character. 
 

Excusing every one of his dumb statements or social miscues as “immaturity”, doesn’t cut-it when we’re looking for franchise players & gifting these kids near millions of dollars which Jake, readily threw around at/with his local posse like peanuts! 
 

Having an inflated ego, on full display & a local or new posse that enabled his worst impulses, was a hinderance to his professional development, too. The fact that Jim Benning was an integral part of a management group in BOS, who decided to trade-away rookie sensation Tyler Seguin to separate him from his off-ice playmates, for similar reasonings - makes his retention of Jake, all the more… disappointing. Benning knew that separating Seguin from his  hanger-ons, was a lesson that encouraged this player’s  professionalism & possibly saved his career. 
 

Jake had deficiencies between the ears & Benning clearly didn’t care an iota about that. Other teams know, other than drafting the elitist athletes, that perhaps awaiting players like the BCHL’s smart-hockey college or university bound grads can weed-out the chronically immature players, who may find it more difficult to commit, prioritize,  sacrifice, study & learn. And, these are just some of the qualities or expectations of any professional athlete…not just to be showing-up as some physical specimen. 

I remember hearing some of Leon Draisaitl’s interviews from the combine & hearing so much more, in maturity, humility, dedication, seriousness & commitment to strive for excellence & future success from him. Jake’s interviews sounded hallow, more shallow & left me with the impression that he was more like a wide-eyed kid in a candy store, feeling quite entitled to giftings unearned & every bit of the praise &/or accolades, perhaps  undeserved. 
 

I had the opportunity to get Jake’s  auto-graph, when I loaned my sharpie to a group of young kids who sought it, while he was sitting near/next to me in a Fraser Valley arena, for a BCHL game 7 play-off game.  In a split second decision, I declined it & I often wondered why? It was just an instinct that told me this guy’s impression of himself or EGO was big enough. Humility was sorely lacking & I sensed he was not someone whom I felt inclined to raise-up upon a pedestal there & then,…or here & now. 

With so much parity among NHL teams, the intangibles like: quality character, leadership, work ethic, humility, compassionate community service record, game sense &/or intelligence…should all be elevated as factors when making selections from amongst  the highest-ranking NHL draftees. 
 

And as Benning learned & should have known, any home-town favourites, without their heads screwed on right, bring with them their own RISKS, as well as rewards.  

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by viking mama

[spook007]

2 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

Attack the man, please enlight me of another GM so stupid.

To hire Ferland with so much concussions so no insurance company dared insure him.
 

It can be another thing. That Benning used the Canucks for his own purposes and didn’t give a damn about the Canucks. 
That can explain why he made such stupid player deals/trades. 
 

Regarding Jake, in the due diligence process you have interviews, check how school work out etc. The scouts must have known Jakes status.

 

I’ve said on CDC I could be a head hunter for the Canucks. That’s because it was a lot of fans that didn’t see what benning did.

Now it’s not needed because Allvin has got rid of the Utica sickness Benning defended.  You probably noticed how effective Allvin neutralised the Utica coach and got rid of him while installing all the extra coaches invluding the Sedins so what happened in Utica won’t happen again. This is a million dollar business and clowns and idiots stay away.
The little bit about Dahlen that makes people like you think I’m bias when I’m using an objective analysis of the situation and have strong ideas how a leader should act in all situations.

 

And the reason why I use stronger adjectives at the end is the bashing of Linden.

Linden is way above Benning as a leader, in honesty and whatever you can think of. 
So if anyone talks shit about Linden I go harder on Benning and shoe how bad he was. 

 

What rubbish bud....

Sorry, but while Benning did a lot of stupid things, I would like you to show one bit of evidence, that he was using Canucks for his own purposes.

What has gained at all by the garbage that happen over an 8 year span... He may have totally mismanaged the club, but to call him corrupt or purposely trying to use Canucks for own gains is nothing short of total fabrication and baloney...

 

In case you aren't aware, Virtanen was rated around the position he was drafted by lots of scouts...

 

As for installing coaches, I have a feeling a lot more money is being spent on coaches, that Benning ever were able to spend. But not because of Benning, but because this likely were one of the conditions, on which JR accepted to take the job on in the first place.

 

Ultimately the man, who owns the club decides. who manages the club, not you or me...

 

Its not a question about a little thing about Dahlen, I could care less about Dahlen,, but that's when you started to hound Benning like a dog in heat.

Again, I could care less about Benning as well, as his legacy will be the same as that of Nonis... 

 

I'm a huge fan of what Allvin has achieved in a short span of time... mind you it's easier to find support players than core players... And even he didn't seem to realise, how good some of the players were, when he came to Vancouver (We don't have a superstar!)...

 

Finally the bashing of Linden? By whom? Linden was Bennings boss. No more, no less. He should have sacked Benning, if he thought, he was a lame duck.

Linden is an incredible likeable guy, a hero in Vancouver (Mr Canuck) and has done lots for hockey players after his pro career.

However, it doesn't look much like he was the POH Canucks needed after Gillis... or the should have found another GM at the time....

 

This was a discussion about Virtanen. But I ask you again, who is that talking shit about Linden...

[D.B Cooper]

[Jess]

Lots of discussion on why Jake failed overall, but I'm more interested in why he even had any success in that one season. What did he do right in that year that he didn't in other years? Why did he suddenly fall off a cliff in the playoffs?

[spook007]

1 hour ago, DSVII said:

All tools. No toolbox.

 

The rumor was it was pushed by Aquilini but at the very least probably a situation our scouting staff took a look and thought "we can fix him." Cause the ceiling was that high and we were hoping for that Lucic mold player

 

This was the dream of many...

[LillStrimma]

33 minutes ago, spook007 said:

 

What rubbish bud....

Sorry, but while Benning did a lot of stupid things, I would like you to show one bit of evidence, that he was using Canucks for his own purposes.

What has gained at all by the garbage that happen over an 8 year span... He may have totally mismanaged the club, but to call him corrupt or purposely trying to use Canucks for own gains is nothing short of total fabrication and baloney...

 

In case you aren't aware, Virtanen was rated around the position he was drafted by lots of scouts...

 

As for installing coaches, I have a feeling a lot more money is being spent on coaches, that Benning ever were able to spend. But not because of Benning, but because this likely were one of the conditions, on which JR accepted to take the job on in the first place.

 

Ultimately the man, who owns the club decides. who manages the club, not you or me...

 

Its not a question about a little thing about Dahlen, I could care less about Dahlen,, but that's when you started to hound Benning like a dog in heat.

Again, I could care less about Benning as well, as his legacy will be the same as that of Nonis... 

 

I'm a huge fan of what Allvin has achieved in a short span of time... mind you it's easier to find support players than core players... And even he didn't seem to realise, how good some of the players were, when he came to Vancouver (We don't have a superstar!)...

 

Finally the bashing of Linden? By whom? Linden was Bennings boss. No more, no less. He should have sacked Benning, if he thought, he was a lame duck.

Linden is an incredible likeable guy, a hero in Vancouver (Mr Canuck) and has done lots for hockey players after his pro career.

However, it doesn't look much like he was the POH Canucks needed after Gillis... or the should have found another GM at the time....

 

This was a discussion about Virtanen. But I ask you again, who is that talking shit about Linden...

The Linden bit is in the Linden thread.

 

Regarding corruption, if decisions mad are stupid and seemingly not analysed correct in a million dollar corporation the head is either dumb or corrupt. Sometimes those two go hand in hand.

Benning did a lot of stupid things. 
Sometimes it was like he tried to stifle the Canucks so they had a harder time achieving success.

Some people work a very long scheme.

So long ordinary people can’t grasp how such a person thinks. And that is why they get away with such behaviour because it is so unbelivable.

 

Then, Allvins word about superstar had probably some psychologial reasoning behind it.

Allvin knows exactly who Petey is. 

[spook007]

5 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

The Linden bit is in the Linden thread.

 

Regarding corruption, if decisions mad are stupid and seemingly not analysed correct in a million dollar corporation the head is either dumb or corrupt. Sometimes those two go hand in hand.

Benning did a lot of stupid things. 
Sometimes it was like he tried to stifle the Canucks so they had a harder time achieving success.

Some people work a very long scheme.

So long ordinary people can’t grasp how such a person thinks. And that is why they get away with such behaviour because it is so unbelivable.

 

Then, Allvins word about superstar had probably some psychologial reasoning behind it.

Allvin knows exactly who Petey is. 

 

He did not try to stifle the Canucks... and yes he did a lot of stupid things and a few good things.

 

I honestly think Allvin has been taken aback at how good Petey really is...

 

As for Linden, he will always be a hero... nobody will ever take that away from him...

 

Have a good evening in Sweden

 

[LillStrimma]

1 minute ago, spook007 said:

 

He did not try to stifle the Canucks... and yes he did a lot of stupid things and a few good things.

 

I honestly think Allvin has been taken aback at how good Petey really is...

 

As for Linden, he will always be a hero... nobody will ever take that away from him...

 

Have a good evening in Sweden

 

Allvin has probably sat a few times and chatted with Inge Hammarström and Tomas Gradin. Allvin has probably also talked to both Dahlen and the finnish player to learn what the issue was in Utica. 
That is how a swedish leader check an incident. Bennings approach is so wrong in many ways through a modern swedes eyes.

The changes Allvin introduced in Abby is to let the prospects know the Canucks got their backs. No one in the current organisation will let a prospect be thrown under a bus and hunted and killed online.

 

Allvin is intelligent and knows everything needed.

 

Here it's cold and snowy and I don't have a snowmobile.. But it's nice with the white so it's nor so dark.

 

Have a nice day/evening 

[MattJVD]

54 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Lots of discussion on why Jake failed overall, but I'm more interested in why he even had any success in that one season. What did he do right in that year that he didn't in other years? Why did he suddenly fall off a cliff in the playoffs?

(Pure speculation on my part)

I think Jake was starting to put it together that year, he was in a rythm and had good habits. I think when the league shut down and he was out of his routine, he wasn't doing enough to stay in good shape. I don't think he was able to keep up his good habits when he was no longer surrounded by teammates with good habbits.

 

He doesn't exactly strike me as a "self-starter" and he probably has to work harder than most to keep his endurance up. From his own comments, he found it hard to keep his weight managed "if I even look at a hot dog, I gain 5 lbs".

 

So you take a guy who isn't a particularly hard worker, who doesn't self-motivate very well out of the culture of hard work he had with his team mates, and combine it with the fact that he probably needs to put in above average effort to stay in game shape: You get a player who shows up to the bubble out of shape.

[spook007]

1 hour ago, LillStrimma said:

Allvin has probably sat a few times and chatted with Inge Hammarström and Tomas Gradin. Allvin has probably also talked to both Dahlen and the finnish player to learn what the issue was in Utica. 
That is how a swedish leader check an incident. Bennings approach is so wrong in many ways through a modern swedes eyes.

The changes Allvin introduced in Abby is to let the prospects know the Canucks got their backs. No one in the current organisation will let a prospect be thrown under a bus and hunted and killed online.

 

Allvin is intelligent and knows everything needed.

 

Here it's cold and snowy and I don't have a snowmobile.. But it's nice with the white so it's nor so dark.

 

Have a nice day/evening 

if Allvin sees a deal he wants, nobody is safe... the fact he pulled the trigger on Horvat shows that. And Schenn for 3rd. 

And that's the way it should be... they are professionals and although is seems tough at times (and it is for the individual that gets trade etc), but its a business. 

 

Allvin may have spoken to Gradin about Petey, but don't think he has discussed Petey with Dahlen.... no idea though, but I think they quickly identified, how they wanted to run the organisation. 
 

JR and PA ran the Penguins, so I think they know exactly how to deal with everything. 
 

I've said it before, the most important thing, or what seems to be the most important thing, while ciewibg from the sidelines, is the fact they all pull in the same direction. POH/GM/AssGM/Coach/AssCoach/AHL coach etc. 

 

Enjoy the snow
 

[Provost]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Do you think you are exaggerating a little here?  18 goals + 18 assists with little to no PP time + mainly 3rd line minutes hardly seems indicative of someone that "good for a short stretch of play lasting about a third of the season" (although his drastic decline would align with your narrative).   Meh.  Like Benning, I genuinely thought Virtanen had turned a corner.  I was wrong. 

Not at all, go look at the game by game breakdown of that season.  At the beginning and end of that season he played just as poorly as he had the rest of his career before and the rest of his career afterwards.  There is no such thing as a drastic decline with Virtanen because there was never a hill he climbed to fall off of.  He didn't produce for almost his entire career, had a few good weeks one season with a 1st line production rate, then went back to what he was before.  His career arc looks like an EGC... flatline, heartbeat, flatline... no gradual sustained improvement and then drastic decline.

Oct 2019 - 5pts in 12 games. 
Nov 2019 - 7pts in 15 games.  
Dec 2019 - 11pts in 13 games (most of that coming near the end of that month when his blip of good play started)
Jan 2020 - 8pts in 11 games
Feb 2020 - 4pts in 13 games
Mar 2020 - 1pt in 5 games
Playoffs - 3pts in 16 games

Aside from a 6-7 week stretch, Virtanen was producing at a 3rd or 4th line rate just like he has his entire career.  36 points over a season while getting mostly offensive zone assignments against poor quality opponents.

Believe what the player showed you he was over 6 years in the NHL, not what he was for 6 weeks.

[LaBamba]

12 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Do we know for a fact that this is what contributed to Virtanen's decline?  

100%. 

[NoCupSyndrome]

13 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Should have drafted Nylander all the way. Even would have taken Ehlers. I think at the time in the draft GDT I was one of maybe 20% of posters who wanted Nylander. Everyone was gushing over Virtanen's physicality and speed. You don't draft physicality with top 10 picks. You draft elite offensive talent. Petey and Hughes have proved that we've learned our lesson.

 

I remember so many posters ripping me, saying that Virtanen would hit or smash skinny Swedish Nylander through the glass. Now look what's happened.

 

Now Nylander is up in the top of the league in scoring and Virtanen is one of the biggest busts of this franchise.

 

Larkin would be my choice 20/20 hindsight and then Pastrnak instead of McCann haha

Edited November 14, 2023 by NoCupSyndrome

[King Heffy]

5 hours ago, DSVII said:

All tools. No toolbox.

 

The rumor was it was pushed by Aquilini but at the very least probably a situation our scouting staff took a look and thought "we can fix him." Cause the ceiling was that high and we were hoping for that Lucic mold player

If you're going to take a guy like that, you need solid coaching to fix him.  He had WD and Green, neither of whom were capable of coaching at the NHL level.  Jake deserves the bulk of the blame for his laziness, but the damage caused by both of those idiots behind the bench can't be understated.  We'll never know what he could have done under a real coach.

Edited November 15, 2023 by King Heffy

[WillisD]

Not very mysterious at all. Jake never had the drive to better himself. That's about all that needs to be said

[Visp]

8 hours ago, spook007 said:

I wanted Ehlers... badly...

 

However, I understand, why they wanted Jake... We had just been murdered by Boston, and had zero prospect with beef on them.

It speaks volume of your hatred towards Benning, that you attack the man at every opportunity...

 

A big physical player that scores goals.... guess who that is?...

 

I was disappointed, when I heard, we picked Virtanen, as I was sure Ehlers was out man... Can't remember the name of the poster, who kept banging the drum for Ehlers, but he sold him to me.

 

Nevertheless, while progressing slowly, and he did progress every year, he obviously never reached the heights that could have been, however McCann did, and he didn't do it over night neither. Talk about dumb... on the night he was drafted 'it is what it is', was what he mustered. It took him 4 teams to figure it out. Not all drafted players becomes stars within 4-5 years, and Jake was really young. Too young probably... Lost the plot...

btw Jake was not the only one who didn't make it in top 6...

Don't think it was me you are referring to but I happened to be in Halifax for 2014 and 2015 and my god was Ehlers ever a phenom!! Have watched thousands of hockey games both live and on TV at many different levels and he was still the only player I have ever seen that literally skates circles around opponents, from one side of the ice to the other. Paired with Timo Meier at the time, a goal or assist was almost expected every time he touched the puck! If Canucks scouts watched enough Mooseheads games in 14/15, I honestly have no idea how they wouldn't have drafted Ehlers!

[PeteyBOI]

2 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Lots of discussion on why Jake failed overall, but I'm more interested in why he even had any success in that one season. What did he do right in that year that he didn't in other years? Why did he suddenly fall off a cliff in the playoffs?

mr green... was insane in those playoffs... beagle went from 19.2% o zone starts to 47%... Virtanen went from 11:35 of 5v5 to 8:39 51% OZ starts to 38% the lowest on the team... Petterson went from 13:48 to 12:48 and 71.4% oz to 38.8% LE went from 10:57 to 12:45 and 31%oz starts to 44.3%

 

 

[DSVII]

34 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

If you're going to take a guy like that, you need solid coaching to fix him.  He had WD and Green, neither of whom were capable of coaching at the NHL level.  Jake deserves the bulk of the blame for his laziness, but the damage caused by both of those idiots behind the bench can't be understated.  We'll never know what he could have done under a real coach.

 

I'll never forget that anecdote where Willie Desjardins and the coaching staff pulled Nikita Tryamkin aside and showed him video footage of Chris Pronger and told him to play that aggressive style, which was never his game.

 

 

[Hairy Kneel]

You hate to bring up the stereotype of dumb jock but sometimes it's there. His problem was between his ears.

[Hogs and Podz]

5 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

Yup... I'm sure will come out later that he was/is struggling with a drug dependency. 

 

The guy was on a planet all by himself before he even arrive to the NHL (meaning few friends... Kind of a loner).  Even Bo yelled at him a number of times... And that's saying something. 

 

I don't think any of us have heard a teammate rave on about how much of a "stand up guy" he is/was... "Quality human being" etc...  Don't think he was well liked by many if any of his team mate... From junior (rumour has it that no teammates showed up to his birthday).  To Bo yelling at him from the bench to "settle down" when taking his frustrations out on Chatfield.

 

Between a low hockey IQ and very low character... And probably some sort of drug dependency.... Not even his elite physical gifts where enough to keep him in the show. 

 

I truly hope he gets his life together, finds some peace of mind and becomes a better, human.

[rackdawg]

9 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

I always wondered if the Virtanen pick was influenced by the positive PR getting of a local kid, that was coming right off the heels of that disasterious Torts year where the crowd chanted for the GMs head, & pitchforks were out for ownership aswell. Bringing a local "PWF" played well at the time, especially after the many years of local kids like Lucic & Gallagher slipping through the cracks. 

 

Because the pick was bad at the time imo. They had no elite offensive talent coming as their top offensive players aged, & their were 2 potential elite offensive players in Nylander+Ehlers on the board. There were concerns about Virtanens upside at the time, not just hindsight.

 

So what went wrong? He was rushed due to the fact he couldn't go to the AHL, he was so physically dominant in Jr it was time to move on but he wasn't an NHL player. Maybe it got to his head being an NHL player so early, when there wasn't much of an internal standard around here to push players. He never seemed to have a drive to push/improve himself like we saw with Petey/Hughes.

 

I do think Jake was a case where an exception to play in the AHL earlier would've benefitted him. 

 

He came to 2 training camps out of shape in that 19-20 year where he looked to be 'turning the corner', nvm the other years. He was never truly a PWF (never cut to the net, rarely used his size) it just wasn't ever his game. He was a low IQ scorer with size+speed. And ultimately he never took his career seriously.

 

I always thought they should've traded him around 2016/2017 when he still had value.

 

million dollar legs and a five cent brain...

Edited November 15, 2023 by rackdawg