The mysterious drastic decline of Jake Virtanen

[Ghostsof1915]

15 hours ago, LaBamba said:

Drugs, a shocking amount of decline in NHL careers can be linked to drugs or alcohol. Coke doesn’t stay in your system. It doesn’t mess with nutrition, so alot of players use it. 

Ok investigative reporter. Sources?

[rychicken]

I think Jake's freefall started at the same time as the Church of Virtanen thread on the old site

 

 

[Ghostsof1915]

8 hours ago, DSVII said:

All tools. No toolbox.

 

The rumor was it was pushed by Aquilini but at the very least probably a situation our scouting staff took a look and thought "we can fix him." Cause the ceiling was that high and we were hoping for that Lucic mold player

All tools.

No brain.

[LaBamba]

2 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Ok investigative reporter. Sources?

Source? What is wrong with you? What source? The guy who sold him blow? What creditable source could anyone possibly ever come up with? 
Such an annoying comment. If everyone here is so naive that they seriously can’t imagine a millionaire in his 20’s getting into blow then I guess you’ll all be in heaven after the rapture. Because your heart is pure and without sin. He has been partying “hard” since Calgary. 

[Jess]

2 hours ago, Dankmemes187 said:

mr green... was insane in those playoffs... beagle went from 19.2% o zone starts to 47%... Virtanen went from 11:35 of 5v5 to 8:39 51% OZ starts to 38% the lowest on the team... Petterson went from 13:48 to 12:48 and 71.4% oz to 38.8% LE went from 10:57 to 12:45 and 31%oz starts to 44.3%

 

 

 

I'll take a look at usage and see if that tells any story.

[Eddie]

I think the answer to this question in hindsight is simple, and may have already sighted : Jake was a of below average intelligence and was far too quick to believe in any hype that was focused on him. 

 

He has all the naturally gifted talents to be one of the best players in the league, but neither the drive nor will to learn the game to capitalize on them.

 

If you cast your mind back to when he was drafted we were a franchise still haunted by being bullied out of a Stanley Cup by the 'big bad Bruins' and more recently the Kings in the playoffs.  The team wanted some speed and power on the wings. The traded the at the time 'franchise' center in CoHo for brainless thug Kassian and drafted Jake in hope of filling that void in the team. 

 

Neither would pan out.  

 

I think the Benning era was really culpable in not really evaluating the character of their signings and high profile draft picks. I feel they believed that natural talent would shine through any character flaws, we saw it with Jake with saw it with OJ, both clearly lazy and entitled as was displayed in their general physical conditioning and application to succeed despite their injuries and other excuses. 

 

Yes Jake was 'rushed' into the league in his D + 1 but he really should have been ready given his physique. 

 

Lets also not forget the very serious sexual assault allegations that were circling around him prior to his ultimate downfall. We can't determine weather he was truly guilty or not, be we know it was his character and lack of intelligence that at least saw him get into that situation. 

 

Ultimately a sad waste of nature's gifts. 

 

 

[JohnEh]

13 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The Canucks organization has had Cam Neely phobia for the last 35 years.  Scared to death that Jim Sandlak, Taylor Pyatt, Brad Isbsiter, Zack Kassian, Jake Virtanen, whoever...is going to move on and immediately become a 50 goals in 50 games power forward.

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes

Will we make the same mistake with Podkolzin?    Don't want to dump on the guy while he's injured, but the next year should tell us whether it's time to cut bait or not.

[D.B Cooper]

52 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Ok investigative reporter. Sources?

https://theathletic.com/1324841/2019/11/05/the-secret-everybody-knows-drugs-like-cocaine-and-molly-becoming-more-popular-in-nhl/?amp=1

 

No need to be snooty because you haven’t heard about it before.  
Cocaine use in the NHL is very well known to be an issue

Edited November 15, 2023 by D.B Cooper

[Ghostsof1915]

8 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

https://theathletic.com/1324841/2019/11/05/the-secret-everybody-knows-drugs-like-cocaine-and-molly-becoming-more-popular-in-nhl/?amp=1

 

No need to be snooty because you haven’t heard about it before.  
Cocaine use in the NHL is very well known to be an issue

I'm snooty when people make blanket statements without providing facts. Don't think that's a bad thing these days.

 

"It is impossible to know just how prevalent cocaine and molly have become, but people are talking about it as a legitimate trend and there is anecdotal evidence to suggest the drugs are in circulation."  I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But I'm questioning. "A lot." How much? 10% 15%? 99%? The article itself doesn't know.

People can be addicted to painkillers, and doctors prescribe them. The NHL and NHLPA could state how many players are in addiction programs, without naming names. Remember these articles are to generate clicks, and revenue. Is the NHL squeaky clean. No. Is drug use out of control? I would say no. Remember if 40 players in the NHL are doing cocaine (Going into substance abuse programs). And that number goes to 60 next year. That's an increase. But now your are dealing with real numbers. But that would still be under 10% of the league.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Ghostsof1915

[PeteyBOI]

4 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

https://theathletic.com/1324841/2019/11/05/the-secret-everybody-knows-drugs-like-cocaine-and-molly-becoming-more-popular-in-nhl/?amp=1

 

No need to be snooty because you haven’t heard about it before.  
Cocaine use in the NHL is very well known to be an issue

i thought we left that era with the 80's

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

https://theathletic.com/1324841/2019/11/05/the-secret-everybody-knows-drugs-like-cocaine-and-molly-becoming-more-popular-in-nhl/?amp=1

 

No need to be snooty because you haven’t heard about it before.  
Cocaine use in the NHL is very well known to be an issue

[Hammertime]

How does that song go about the farmer in the DEL.

 

Sum sum the cheese stands alone. 

[Alflives]

Mysterious? IMHAO there’s no mystery to the reasons why Jake bustarooed.

He was a dough head. He was lazy. He had low character. 
Benning said he drafted for character. Interesting how Jake was his fist pick. 

[PeteyBOI]

12 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Those are really interesting advanced stats and I'm glad you posted these.

 

For the life, I just can't fathom as to why Jake just fell off a cliff.   The guy was pretty damn good in 2020 and no, I don't buy some of the other arguments that he was being fed sheltered minutes (like Adam Gaudette was).  Virtanen looked good in 2020.  18 goals + 18 assists + limited PP time + mainly 3rd line minutes.  I just don't understand what happened to him in the 20/21 season and beyond.  Did Covid take too much of a toll on his mental health?

oh he was though for sure... he was top 50 in the league for playing against 4th line players normally thats reserved for your offense line and your 4th line...

Edited November 15, 2023 by Dankmemes187

[Westcoasting]

13 hours ago, spook007 said:

I wanted Ehlers... badly...

 

However, I understand, why they wanted Jake... We had just been murdered by Boston, and had zero prospect with beef on them.

It speaks volume of your hatred towards Benning, that you attack the man at every opportunity...

 

A big physical player that scores goals.... guess who that is?...

 

I was disappointed, when I heard, we picked Virtanen, as I was sure Ehlers was out man... Can't remember the name of the poster, who kept banging the drum for Ehlers, but he sold him to me.

 

Nevertheless, while progressing slowly, and he did progress every year, he obviously never reached the heights that could have been, however McCann did, and he didn't do it over night neither. Talk about dumb... on the night he was drafted 'it is what it is', was what he mustered. It took him 4 teams to figure it out. Not all drafted players becomes stars within 4-5 years, and Jake was really young. Too young probably... Lost the plot...

btw Jake was not the only one who didn't make it in top 6...

I remember that and I think, it was a dude name Strykers or something like that, had videos showing the speed of Ehlert was similar to Bure… does that sound familiar?

[spook007]

5 hours ago, Visp said:

Don't think it was me you are referring to but I happened to be in Halifax for 2014 and 2015 and my god was Ehlers ever a phenom!! Have watched thousands of hockey games both live and on TV at many different levels and he was still the only player I have ever seen that literally skates circles around opponents, from one side of the ice to the other. Paired with Timo Meier at the time, a goal or assist was almost expected every time he touched the puck! If Canucks scouts watched enough Mooseheads games in 14/15, I honestly have no idea how they wouldn't have drafted Ehlers!

Cheers Visp. 
 

No it wasn't you but something like snyps7 or similar (can't remember too well), but he was constantly making posts about Ehlers, and he sounded like a dream pick up. 
Actually was really surprises, why they didn't go for him at the time... 

It was almost a stone wall homerun waiting to happen. 
So yes I was bitterly disappointed. 
 

Oh well, all water under the bridge now, but thank for the heads up. 

[spook007]

1 hour ago, Westcoasting said:

I remember that and I think, it was a dude name Strykers or something like that, had videos showing the speed of Ehlert was similar to Bure… does that sound familiar?

Cheers bud. 
Yes it does. It was something like that. 
And yes he was electrict... it was a certain homerun, but I think all the Boston bullying us was still raw in the system. 

Seem to recall thhat most of us were looking towards Ehlers and Nylander in that draft (at pick no. 6) Top of the tree was Ekblad and Drai...
Think he was drafted 9th, so Canucks weren't the only ones to screw it up, but he would have looked amazing in a Canucks jersey. 
 

[sashimi]

18 hours ago, LaBamba said:

Drugs, a shocking amount of decline in NHL careers can be linked to drugs or alcohol. Coke doesn’t stay in your system. It doesn’t mess with nutrition, so alot of players use it. 

 

Coke definitely does stay in your system. The NHL just doesn't test for it lol. If they did half the league would be suspended.

[Jeremy Hronek]

9 hours ago, Provost said:

Not at all, go look at the game by game breakdown of that season.  At the beginning and end of that season he played just as poorly as he had the rest of his career before and the rest of his career afterwards.  There is no such thing as a drastic decline with Virtanen because there was never a hill he climbed to fall off of.  He didn't produce for almost his entire career, had a few good weeks one season with a 1st line production rate, then went back to what he was before.  His career arc looks like an EGC... flatline, heartbeat, flatline... no gradual sustained improvement and then drastic decline.

Oct 2019 - 5pts in 12 games. 
Nov 2019 - 7pts in 15 games.  
Dec 2019 - 11pts in 13 games (most of that coming near the end of that month when his blip of good play started)
Jan 2020 - 8pts in 11 games
Feb 2020 - 4pts in 13 games
Mar 2020 - 1pt in 5 games
Playoffs - 3pts in 16 games

Aside from a 6-7 week stretch, Virtanen was producing at a 3rd or 4th line rate just like he has his entire career.  36 points over a season while getting mostly offensive zone assignments against poor quality opponents.

Believe what the player showed you he was over 6 years in the NHL, not what he was for 6 weeks.

 

This is a pretty good post but even those November and February totals that you listed aren't that bad for a bottom 6 player.  

 

What's especially alarming to me is his 2020/2021 season where he performed even worse than his Rookie year (after having had his best season - luck or not).  

 

Take a look at this:  

 

 

So even in his "awful" performances from 2017-2020, Jake was still able to score 10, 15, and 18 goals per season, with overall point totals of 20, 25, and 36.  

 

Now, is that the stuff of legends?  No, but it's decent production for a 3rd line player (2018/2019 + 2019/2020).   

 

So again I ask, what the hell happened in 2020-2021?   Did Jake Virtanen magically become a 38 year old man?  Was he doing drugs?    

 

Or, is it possible that the Covid lockdown/restricted lifestyle took a toll on his mental health and he never found his footing after that?  

 

Virtanen is still only 27 years of age.  Even if he can't duplicate that 6-7 week stretch in 2019-2020, would it be inconceivable to believe that he could go back to his 2018-2019 level?  (i.e. 15 goals).  He's dumb as a rock but the kid has speed and size when he's in shape.  

 

And who knows?  Maybe before the covid lockdowns/restricted lifestyle, maybe he was showing signs of taking the next step even if he struggled a bit in February and March of 2020.  

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, LaBamba said:

Source? What is wrong with you? What source? The guy who sold him blow? What creditable source could anyone possibly ever come up with? 
Such an annoying comment. If everyone here is so naive that they seriously can’t imagine a millionaire in his 20’s getting into blow then I guess you’ll all be in heaven after the rapture. Because your heart is pure and without sin. He has been partying “hard” since Calgary. 

 

All of the Oilers players in the 1980's were doing blow.  Even Gretzky.  Cocaine is totally legal now.  Lots of people carry it around.  I was at a golf tournament in the summer, and ALOT of people who were there golfing were doing blow.  Am I'm talking about prominent Vancouver businesspeople, not 19 year old kids.

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I'm snooty when people make blanket statements without providing facts. Don't think that's a bad thing these days.

 

"It is impossible to know just how prevalent cocaine and molly have become, but people are talking about it as a legitimate trend and there is anecdotal evidence to suggest the drugs are in circulation."  I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But I'm questioning. "A lot." How much? 10% 15%? 99%? The article itself doesn't know.

People can be addicted to painkillers, and doctors prescribe them. The NHL and NHLPA could state how many players are in addiction programs, without naming names. Remember these articles are to generate clicks, and revenue. Is the NHL squeaky clean. No. Is drug use out of control? I would say no. Remember if 40 players in the NHL are doing cocaine (Going into substance abuse programs). And that number goes to 60 next year. That's an increase. But now your are dealing with real numbers. But that would still be under 10% of the league.

 

You are not in that scene, so you wouldn't really know what is going on.  There are no sources unless you want to start talking to drug dealers around the city.

 

It is well known within that scene that there is high level drug and alcohol use not only from professional athletes but also from high level businessmen and women in Vancouver.  I used to be a part of that scene a long time ago.  If you go to any "party" downtown on a Friday or Saturday night, you can easily get blow.  You can literally get blow from the doorman at the Fairmont Hotel.  It isn't that hard these days.  Cocaine is literally legal up to an 8 ball (2.5 grams) to carry around as you please.  But even before it was legal, it was still very easy to obtain.  The only difference these days is the "potency" of the drug and the pureness.  The cocaine of today is laced with fentanyl, so you have to be careful who you are buying it from.  I know a few people that have overdosed.  Once guy overdosed at the Fairmont Hotel last year and barely survived...

 

I wouldn't touch any of the crap that is out there today, so these professional athletes and business people need to be careful who they are buying it from...

[Mrwipeout]

id say he simply got to a level of contentment and then stopped trying to improve and reach another level. instead he went outside the hockey with his life more and more since he wasnt satisfied in a 3rd line role. He then declined since he stopped believing he could be better then he was or thought he was good enough. which he wasnt.....u need an elite physique and a die hard attitute to make it and he stopped evolving/striving to become the best he could be. unfortunately i think thats the more common attitute then ppl wants to acknowledge. u are "satisfied" with things as are....not worth more effort. thats when things go south real quick. 

 

a reasonable comparrisson is the latvian hockey team that won the gold at this years worlds......beating USA Canada Sweden Czech Fin......all the "great" nations with a lot of NHL players, and they did it by shear will and hunger to win and to fight for their country and the ppl they belong. dont be surprised if more of these events will occur where those small nations win...because they have a hunger and desperation that the other nations cant match. not to say this is the "only" outcome....but this kind of determination is getting more and more rare...and hockey is a tough sport where u always need to fight, and be ready to go into battle. 

[LaBamba]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

All of the Oilers players in the 1980's were doing blow.  Even Gretzky.  Cocaine is totally legal now.  Lots of people carry it around.  I was at a golf tournament in the summer, and ALOT of people who were there golfing were doing blow.  Am I'm talking about prominent Vancouver businesspeople, not 19 year old kids.

A shocking amount of NHL players do it. I grew up with Jared Stoll. One summer when I was living in sylvan lake. Stoll and raffi Torres rented a place on the lake. He knew I lived there but we didn’t really talk much, so I didn’t even know he was there. He got ahold of me to get them some “groceries” though. 

[IBatch]

21 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Craig Button had it nailed, late 2nd rounder. Even that seems high in hindsight.

 

 

Perhaps if that's where he was drafted, he would have put the time into his craft that was needed for him to have a career.   Almost every single first round pick is given a shot, high picks even moreso.   Second rounders usually get a shot too but not always. 

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Perhaps if that's where he was drafted, he would have put the time into his craft that was needed for him to have a career.   Almost every single first round pick is given a shot, high picks even moreso.   Second rounders usually get a shot too but not always. 

 

That could be, maybe less entitled? But I think probably not in this guys case.