Francesco Aquillini and Jim Benning --Tales of a Rebuild: Misconceptions, Misery, and Money

[Ballisticsports]

26 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

Hi there, you can watch the serie about Börje Salming. 
It has a little connection to Petey and the Canucks since Inge Hammarstöm is in there too.

Lol Remember Ballard stating in the rough and tough NHL days that Inge could go in the corners with eggs in his pocket and come out of it with not one egg broken

[AnthonyG]

47 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

8yrs !

Didn't he want assurance on EVERY pick ?

it was actually 7 years but okay. 
Glad you can count. Shows how much you pay attention lol.

 

Considering Pettersson was ranked anywhere from 5-20 and mostly on the outside of the top 10, you need to be dead fuckin certain you’re taking that risk. The rest were taken quite close to where they ranked.

 

47 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

Cap recapture- You mean guys he spent picks and cap on, to sit on the bench, in the minors, on other teams and then give more pics to get rid of them shortly after?

Cap recapture? Are just ignorant or completely oblivious? This little thing that happened when Luongo retired early? Handing a very sizeable cap penalty to our organization.

 

Name these players who sat on the bench, were paid moderate-high salaries to play in the AHL are on other teams being paid? lol careful now, Allvin penalized us for how many years because of a knee jerk reaction out of panic? 
i could rip into this new management much harder in much less time spent with how many fucking stupid choices they have already made IN UNDER TWO FUCKING YEARS than you can with “8” years of Benning. I’d say the alarm bells should already going off if you want to complain about some under performers that led to buyouts or cap dumps.

 

 

47 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

Found names? -You mean the names that set us back and kept us at league bottom?

 

which names are you referring to?

COVID?

flat cap?

18 games in 30 days to start a season, 1 month shut down and no Petey for over half a season, 19 games in 30 days to finish the season AFTER COVID destroyed us?

Elias Petterssons extended hot boy summer? Pointless 24 games in the first 40?? Missed playoffs by 3 fucking wins? 
2nd round game 7 while rebuilding?

 

2021 no petey and COVID decimating us plus that insane schedule.. 24th. That aint the bottom and that season was hell due to a virus that caused a global pandemic incase you missed it while hiding under your bridge.

 

2021-22 18th?????? Benning fired, No changes made, Bottom of the league?? Say no to crack.

2022-23 22nd lmfao PA and JR finished lower than the Bennings team the year prior hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAJA OMG

 

Like really dude??? You wanna blame a GM who had to rebuild, for where he finished in the standings??? Keep reaching for straws and moving goal posts.

 

47 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

Remove him from the scouting staff with the most consecutive highest round pics The Good and Bad ones  and tell me WHY HE WAS A GOOD GM?

CAN YOU READ?? I AM CAPSLOCK TO HELP YOU READ BECAUSE I ALREADY SAID WHY. HE BUILT THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR PLAYER DEVELOPMENT RIGHT HERE IN OUR OWN BACK YARD, RFA NEGOTIATIONS, NAVIGATING THROUGH A FLAT CAP WHILE STILL GETTING NHL PLAYERS LIKE SCHMIDT AND HOLTBY TO FIT IN A FLAT CAP ON SHORT TERM. IAN CLARK, THE TWINS, BRACKETT. IDENTIFYING ISSUES IN OUR SCOUTING DEPARTMENT AND MAKING CHANGES TO HELP BRING SUCCESS, LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE HE EMPLOYED. MANAGING TO MOVE FAN FAVOURITES AND GET SOME VALUE IN RETURN. MOVING DAHLEN OUT ASAP AFTER FINDING OUT ABOUT HIS CHARACTER ISSUES AND GETTING KARLSSON.

NO GM IS PERFECT BUT HE WAS FAR FROM BAD

[LillStrimma]

15 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

Lol Remember Ballard stating in the rough and tough NHL days that Inge could go in the corners with eggs in his pocket and come out of it with not one egg broken

With a bit of luck we might see a few live scenes from that era.

 

3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

i

Considering Pettersson was ranked anywhere from 5-20 and mostly on the outside of the top 10, you need to be dead fuckin certain you’re taking that risk. The rest were taken quite close to where they ranked.

 

Inge Hammarström had Petey as number one in the draft and he was the scout behind Foppa Forsberg.

 

[kilgore]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:41 AM, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

1) Do I think Benning is mostly a scapegoat? You bet. Do I think many overlook why that regime made the vast majority of the moves they did during that time period? You bet. Do I reject the idea "it would've been different under a different GM"? You bet.

 

Nothing was changing ownerships mind here. Hank and Danny weren't going anywhere, and the organization had nothing in the pipeline to build thanks to the previous regime. So, what can you even do.

 

I'm not "defending" Benning so much as trying to discuss the organizations underlying plan, which was NOT HIS CHOICE to begin with. As we know it wasn't even Trevor Linden's. Even the most revered captain in franchise history was powerless to change that part.

 

This or that free agent vet signing paid too much, this or that trade, this or that particular pick.. all this stuff is mostly an aside at this point. Hell, I'd even agree with many of things people disliked from a purely "this is how you're supposed to do rebuild" ideal. I've stated over and over even I would have preferred that fantastical "tank."

 

But we're talking beyond the mere hockey team here.

 

Multiple interests to think about. Different departments, stakeholders, partnerships, contractual obligations to meet (remember the bubble season with teams playing in empty arenas to meet their TV contract and advertising obligations?)

 

I'm talking about all the shit that has largely nothing to do with the "team" or "managing" a hockey team itself.

 

Put a pylon in the GM chair at this point. That pylon had the same amount power to change any of the above. That's what I mean when I say "it didn't matter who the GM was." Because it really didn't.

 

And by extension, if the goal was to stay competitive for the duration of the rebuild, to help meet all these different obligations financial or otherwise, I ask... what the hell difference does it make who you get to be your placeholders and stop gaps for that roster during that time period? As long as they can play above replacement level and keep consumers interest higher than it otherwise would, what difference does it make. The things listed above were the larger focus. And those are things that become easier to maintain with a better product.

 

They organization knew that "sea of granlunds" wasn't the future core being sought. The core was yet to even really be drafted or to be built around.

 

But in the meantime, jobs were open. Guys who may or may not see play in other organizations can come and get icetime and compete. (Look at Kyle Burroughs moving to San Jose to play for that tire fire on a longer term deal.) Granted, a particular players incentive to go to a losing rebuilder is their own, nevertheless the org knew they weren't winning anything. They knew they likely weren't making playoffs.

 

Doesn't mean they weren't going to ice the best product they could with what was available to keep the proverbial wolf from the door as an institution.

 

And even if we want to go down that shoulda coulda woulda path sifting through every move it's basically akin to mental masterbation. It holds very little value in the grander scheme of the discussion. But I'm repeating myself here.

 

2) Of course money can be made in all sorts of ways.  But who are you or I or anyone else to tell these billionaire that's what they should do with their investments. "Just risk losing money, bro! Tank your product! It's the best theoretical plan for future success... maybe."

 

BUT there are no guarantees here. And try as some may, we simply cannot pretend like there are.  So, I'm not sure how anyone could be surprised by the resounding "no" that follows from such a proposition for an ownership group in most ANY business, not just Frankie.

 

The most fascinating part, to me at least, have always been the underlying mechanisms driving decision making, how much free to choose actually exists when we really think about it. Understanding what the barriers and constraints to doing things we would otherwise want to do. This that or the other.

 

Hell, a thing could be the easiest, smartest thing in the world to do with 100% certainty for success. But that does neccesarily make it a realistic path to tread. There are many many other variables to account for before we can draw those kinds of conclusions. Yet, we see people draw those conclusions on this particular topic all the time when we really actually can't. At least not to the degree many try... not if we want an accurate account of the truth anyway.

 

3) "Aquilini wanted to be the King of Howe Street..."

 

is he not already?

 

I've painfully read through this entire thread, and it seems like a lot of writing for what amounts to an argument from you made up of a lot of conjecture and excuses and hypocrisy.

 

You defend Benning with lines like these...

 

"Am I defending Benning and his management squad? Perhaps. I think they are, for the most part, scapegoats making the best of a tough situation."

 

"Lest we forget, Benning and co. lasted 8 years. By this we can reasonably deduce that their work kept the dollars and viewership levels to an adequate level for ownership. They did the best they could to balance the needs of the present and the needs of the future. "

 

"Even Gillis or Allvin would look like shit if they were dealt the same cards the Benning regime was atxhat time."

 

And then say at points that you are not defending him.

But you have been so lets look at your defence.

JB was a "scapegoat", but at the same time was "making the best of a tough situation" and "did the best they could to balance the needs..."

NO he did not!  He did nothing near to this. In fact he made the worst out of a tough situation. And he made the situation tougher to deal with every season with added headaches to deal with from the signings the season before.

 

Now lets talk about what you claim to be actually focused on...ownership's role. What I see that is a common thread from you on this topic is.......Aquilini like God handing down the tablets, gave the instruction to ice a competitive team no matter what...even if it harms long term sustainability, or building a true contender...and so what's a poor GM to do?.  Certainly not try and convince him otherwise.  That not only did the GM's job not really matter much but even the players he brought in didn't matter. Nothing would have worked.  Because it was all managed/sabotaged from above him. Us fans simply had to wait it out. Like an extended major penalty.

 

But the point of many on here is why would any new GM, who cared about his reputation at all, accept doing what I hear you agree was the wrong choice, just to cash a paycheck?  Well Benning would I guess. So is your argument that Human Greed is the culprit? Benning just couldn't resist so give him a break? And that even Gillis or Allvin would look like shit in the same circumstances.  That they'd also take the money and run?

For one, Gilis was never in this circumstance, he had a team on the cusp. It required a different kind of managing. Bringing in good support players, signing core players to team friendly deals to keep more of them around. Which he did very well. And only traded away one first round pick in all of that. While gifting Benning two first round picks for his first draft.  He also left Benning with a team chalk full of SCF grizzled veterans to wheel and deal.  There's a reason teams like the Canucks were interested in a player like Cole, at 34, at 3 mill, even for one year.  The 2014 team was not a team of "dogshit".

 

But around the league, and in fact with this present management team in Vancouver, you see evidence of good managers being able to convince ownership to go in the right direction. Even if there is pain ahead. Like Gorton did with the Rangers.  You seem to believe that Aquilinis are some god like figures who thundered down their edict and if it wasn't Benning it would some other schmuck doing their bidding.   But you don't know that!  JR sure as shit must have said enough to convince Francesco to stand back.

 

The second part of it is that even IF Benning believed he had no choice but to do a retool with an aging core...which is dumb...he fucked it up royally.  This Aqua retool didn't stand a chance because he was a horrible GM. Especially at pro scouting. And contract negotiations.

 

Now that we have a younger core entering their prime, retooling is the only option.  And thank the Hockey Gods, at least we have managers who know how to pro scout and deal with contracts and cap issues, to give it at least a chance in hell of working. Because its way harder than a straight ahead traditional rebuild.

 

So much word salad is all. 

Your whole argument can be summed up....Owner is God....because...privilege, Capitalism? .  Benning no choice but to be a bad GM. He was "just following orders" and would have been taken out, tied to the Roger Neilson statue and shot if he didn't humour the owner.  And a new Benning clone would come in to replace him. Besides Gillis (who got us to a SCF) was worse somehow, so that lets Benning off the hook.

 

And after all that, this is the killer:

"And I bet if you asked Francesco directly, even he personally would've preferred to take a different approach."

WTF?  Doesn't this eliminate your entire argument?  ie...Why didn't he then????

 

All in all it was BOTH Bennings horrible management, combined with a Musk like, deluded owner who confused getting lucky in the real estate business meaning he was a genius in everything else.  They propped each other up, and covered for each other, to the detriment of the team and us fans for nearly a decade.

 

Its over now.  Why do we keep getting these Benning excuse makers that pop up about once a month on CDC and CFF?

 

I'd LOVE to trade the owners in.  But we can't. But they are human, and can have their thinking changed by smart, persuasive experienced respected hockey figures. Luckily for us.

 

Go Canucks Go!  Which is all any of us want. Why don't you Benning Bros just fade away and move on?  Stop with the new OPs on the topic every few weeks. That nightmare is over.  Lets all cheer on this new winning era!!!

 

 

[AnthonyG]

19 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

 

Inge Hammarström had Petey as number one in the draft and he was the scout behind Foppa Forsberg.

 

And is he part of rankings or is he giving his personal opinion? Because the rankings showed Pettersson anywhere from 5th (only once) to 20th mostly on the outside of the top 10.

How hard is that for you to understand? You can your opinion based off what you see but the consensus did not agree. You wanna take that risk and listen to one guy who doesnt give out final rankings? 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

On 11/19/2023 at 12:02 PM, Wiggums said:

Anthony G = Benning's son.  

 

Confirmed.  

 

 

Are you sure?  Based on the below, I'd have thought he's actually @HOCKEYGOD77...

 

51 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

CAN YOU READ?? I AM CAPSLOCK TO HELP YOU READ BECAUSE I ALREADY SAID WHY.

 

 

... oh wait, I guess the two aren't mutually exclusive.  

[LillStrimma]

Just now, AnthonyG said:

And is he part of rankings or is he giving his personal opinion? Because the rankings showed Pettersson anywhere from 5th (only once) to 20th mostly on the outside of the top 10.

How hard is that for you to understand? You can your opinion based off what you see but the consensus did not agree. You wanna take that risk and listen to one guy who doesnt give out final rankings? 

And Inge laughed loud at the rankings.

He said back when he pushed really hard for Foppa that he would have taken him before Lindros. That’s because he knew how much Foppa trained and lack of divalates and some charachter flaws Lindros had.

Inge got that right also since Foppa got a few cups and had 1.25ppg, Lindros 1,14ppg

 

So Inge pushed similarly regarding Petey with real draft success in the baggage to show.  Listen to what Inge says. 

.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

8 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

And Inge laughed loud at the rankings.

He said back when he pushed really hard for Foppa that he would have taken him before Lindros. That’s because he knew how much Foppa trained and lack of divalates and some charachter flaws Lindros had.

Inge got that right also since Foppa got a few cups and had 1.25ppg, Lindros 1,14ppg

 

So Inge pushed similarly regarding Petey with real draft success in the baggage to show.  Listen to what Inge says. 

.

To be fair, Foppa got lucky the Montreal GM was an ass & dealt Patrick Roy to Colorado while he was still in his prime because he head coach he hired was a bigger ass.  

Edited November 22, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[LillStrimma]

10 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

To be fair, Foppa got lucky the Montreal GM was an ass & dealt Patrick Roy to Colorado while he was still in his prime because he head coach he hired was a bigger ass.  

Regarding the cups yes but not regarding ppg. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

11 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

Regarding the cups yes but not regarding ppg. 

I'm still taking therapy after this moment (regarding Foppa):

 

 

heh, unless I'm remembering it wrong, but I think they even asked (former Canuck) Hirsch to "pose" for that (in order to recreate that moment).

Edited November 22, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[LillStrimma]

9 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I'm still taking therapy after this moment (regarding Foppa):

 

 

heh, unless I'm remembering it wrong, but I think they even asked (former Canuck) Hirsch to "pose" for that (in order to recreate that moment).

He liked to post on CDC but I’m not sure if he joined here.

 

 

[5forFighting]

I couldn't care less about Frank and Jim's relationship. Jim was not good enough at his job to keep Frank out of his business. Seems like now there are proper people in place. You don't hear from Frank at all anymore and I am sure the family likes it that way. Just win. 

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, LillStrimma said:

And Inge laughed loud at the rankings.

He said back when he pushed really hard for Foppa that he would have taken him before Lindros. That’s because he knew how much Foppa trained and lack of divalates and some charachter flaws Lindros had.

Inge got that right also since Foppa got a few cups and had 1.25ppg, Lindros 1,14ppg

 

So Inge pushed similarly regarding Petey with real draft success in the baggage to show.  Listen to what Inge says. 

.

 

1 hour ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Are you sure?  Based on the below, I'd have thought he's actually @HOCKEYGOD77...

 

 

 

... oh wait, I guess the two aren't mutually exclusive.  

Good to know you comprehend capslock communication, I guess I was successful in trying to communicate with trolls. BACK UNDER YOUR BRIDGE NOW 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

6 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

 

Good to know you comprehend capslock communication, I guess I was successful in trying to communicate with trolls. BACK UNDER YOUR BRIDGE NOW 

 

Nah, as a human I'm pretty good living where I'm at now.  The bridge is better suited for you.

[AnthonyG]

9 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Nah, as a human I'm pretty good living where I'm at now.  The bridge is better suited for you.

Yea the bridge is suited for me, underneath the bridge is suited for you.

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

4 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea the bridge is suited for me, underneath the bridge is suited for you.

 

English comprehension isn't your strong suit.  But that's ok, it's just the way you are.

[SV.]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea the bridge is suited for me, underneath the bridge is suited for you.

Why are you adamant that he and others are the ones doing the trolling?

You do realize you're the one who's been going to bat for a former GM that oversaw one of the worst eras of hockey, not just in Canucks history, but in all of the NHL?

Surely, you have to realize you're the one who's been teetering closer to trolling territory than anybody else has in this discussion?

[AnthonyG]

12 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

English comprehension isn't your strong suit.  But that's ok, it's just the way you are.

Comprehension isn’t yours period. Under your bridge little troll

[AnthonyG]

15 minutes ago, SV. said:

Why are you adamant that he and others are the ones doing the trolling?

You do realize you're the one who's been going to bat for a former GM that oversaw one of the worst eras of hockey, not just in Canucks history, but in all of the NHL?

Surely, you have to realize you're the one who's been teetering closer to trolling territory than anybody else has in this discussion?

Mob mentality is for dummies. Just sayin. The blind leading the blind.
 

worst era of hockey? Yea its called a rebuild.
why did we have to rebuild? Because Gillis destroyed the window to win faster than any GM we’ve ever had. You are currently watching the new era of hockey, this has Bennings true finger prints on it. Not the twilight years of the Sedins, Bieksa, Burrows, etc. He built the era of Hughes, Demko, Miller, Pettersson, Boeser etc. 

 

The day the twins prime ended our window was closed. The moment the plateaued it was over. The hopes and dreams of a cup were gone.

 

use your brain. 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

8 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Comprehension isn’t yours period. Under your bridge little troll

 

[AnthonyG]

3 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by AnthonyG

[Bob Long]

19 hours ago, Alflives said:

Really started wondering g about Benning’s self confidence when he showed up with a shoe polished head. That’s was just friggin’ weird. Owner should have fired him right then, 

 

he got the bus station special. Maybe he knew he needed to save money. 

[AnthonyG]

29 minutes ago, SV. said:

Why are you adamant that he and others are the ones doing the trolling?

You do realize you're the one who's been going to bat for a former GM that oversaw one of the worst eras of hockey, not just in Canucks history, but in all of the NHL?

Surely, you have to realize you're the one who's been teetering closer to trolling territory than anybody else has in this discussion?

Bure and Linden were an era

The WCE were an era

The twins were an era, that era ended 2017-18. 

The Pettersson era began 2018-19. If you say he oversaw the worst era, you should stop watching and find a new team because Benning gave us the next era of hockey. 
 

Troll harder bud, NJD 11 straight playoff misses, ARZ is a joke, Atlanta was a joke, Deadmonton Coilers are heading for yet another lotto pick. You are clueless as all hell when it comes to era’s and the sport of hockey itself. 

[SV.]

Just now, AnthonyG said:

Mob mentality is for dummies. Just sayin. The blind leading the blind.
 

worst era of hockey? Yea its called a rebuild.
why did we have to rebuild? Because Gillis destroyed the window to win faster than any GM we’ve ever had. You are currently watching the new era of hockey, this has Bennings true finger prints on it. Not the twilight years of the Sedins, Bieksa, Burrows, etc. He built the era of Hughes, Demko, Miller, Pettersson, Boeser etc. 

 

The day the twins prime ended our window was closed. The moment the plateaued it was over. The hopes and dreams of a cup were gone.

 

use your brain. 

How ironic.  Talk of mob mentality and "the blind" when the GM you rep was literally known for having a cult of followers and "fans" ("Bros" as they were known) that were unable to think, critique, and analyze for themselves about the team they supported.

So, tell me then, if this is the nature of rebuilds, why has virtually no other rebuild gone the way that this one did in Vancouver?  Why haven't other teams been cap-strapped, prospect-barren, and the like for nearly a decade? 

You see, while your first response will probably be to do as the former GM often did - blame everybody and everything else - the easiest explanation to accept is that the execution and decision-making simply wasn't good enough.  For your own sake, you should abandon the sunk cost you're holding onto and simply come to terms that it isn't a coincidence that all the other GMs who have worked here managed just fine.  And if that isn't good enough, come to see that the GMs outside of Vancouver, in both the present and immediate past, have never come close to seeing the lows that Vancouver saw for nearly a decade.

Perhaps, it's time to use your brain and see reality for what it is.  And I'll help you get started with a simple statement to sit on below:

Whatever success happens with the Vancouver Canucks going forward, be it a player winning a trophy, the team receiving an accolade, or even winning a Stanley Cup, the names recognized will not acknowledge or feature Jim Benning  

His "team" is not a thing and will never be a thing  

[AnthonyG]

33 minutes ago, SV. said:

Why are you adamant that he and others are the ones doing the trolling?

You do realize you're the one who's been going to bat for a former GM that oversaw one of the worst eras of hockey, not just in Canucks history, but in all of the NHL?

Surely, you have to realize you're the one who's been teetering closer to trolling territory than anybody else has in this discussion?

Ive actually provided stats, research, proof and Ive actually called more shit correct than any of you trolls on these forums. Trolling offers zero logical explanation or factual proof, research or statistics. Bring something to the table for once.