Francesco Aquillini and Jim Benning --Tales of a Rebuild: Misconceptions, Misery, and Money

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, SV. said:

How ironic.  Talk of mob mentality and "the blind" when the GM you rep was literally known for having a cult of followers and "fans" ("Bros" as they were known) that were unable to think, critique, and analyze for themselves about the team they supported.

So, tell me then, if this is the nature of rebuilds, why has virtually no other rebuild gone the way that this one did in Vancouver?  Why haven't other teams been cap-strapped, prospect-barren, and the like for nearly a decade? 

You see, while your first response will probably be to do as the former GM often did - blame everybody and everything else - the easiest explanation to accept is that the execution and decision-making simply wasn't good enough.  For your own sake, you should abandon the sunk cost you're holding onto and simply come to terms that it isn't a coincidence that all the other GMs who have worked here managed just fine.  And if that isn't good enough, come to see that the GMs outside of Vancouver, in both the present and immediate past, have never come close to seeing the lows that Vancouver saw for nearly a decade.

Perhaps, it's time to use your brain and see reality for what it is.  And I'll help you get started with a simple statement to sit on below:

Whatever success happens with the Vancouver Canucks going forward, be it a player winning a trophy, the team receiving an accolade, or even winning a Stanley Cup, the names recognized will not acknowledge or feature Jim Benning  

His "team" is not a thing and will never be a thing  

Hahahahahahahhahahaha holy fuck this is hysterical. You’re clearly new here and I’ll send you one little picture to help you understand. After that, you’re on your on bud. 
 

2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	9	1	Bo Horvat	C	London Knights [OHL]	667	213	237	450	208
2013 Entry	24	1	Hunter Shinkaruk	L	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]	15	2	2	4	4
2013 Entry	85	3	Cole Cassels	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2013 Entry	115	4	Jordan Subban	D	Belleville Bulls [OHL]
2013 Entry	145	5	Anton Cederholm	D	Rogle Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	175	6	Mike Williamson	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]
2013 Entry	205	7	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	26	1	Brendan Gaunce	C	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	153	11	13	24	61
2012 Entry	57	2	Alexandre Mallet	C	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2012 Entry	147	5	Ben Hutton	D	Nepean Raiders [CCHL]	481	22	92	114	185
2012 Entry	177	6	Wesley Myron	F	Victoria Grizzlies [BCHL]
2012 Entry	207	7	Matthew Beattie	R	Exeter [N.H. H.S.]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	29	1	Nicklas Jensen	R	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	31	3	3	6	10
2011 Entry	71	3	David Honzik	G	Victoriaville Tigres [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	90	3	Alexandre Grenier	R	Quebec Remparts [QMJHL]	9	0	0	0	2
2011 Entry	101	4	Joseph LaBate	L	Holy Angels Academy (Minn.)	13	0	0	0	21
2011 Entry	120	4	Ludwig Blomstrand	L	Djurgardens Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2011 Entry	150	5	Frankie Corrado	D	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	76	3	5	8	40
2011 Entry	180	6	Pathrik Westerholm	L	Malmo Redhawks [Swe-1]
2011 Entry	210	7	Henrik Tommernes	D	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2010 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2010 Entry	115	4	Patrick McNally	D	Milton Academy [Mass.]
2010 Entry	145	5	Adam Polasek	D	Prince Edward Island Rocket [QMJHL]
2010 Entry	172	6	Alex Friesen	C	Niagara IceDogs [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2010 Entry	175	6	Jonathan Iilahti	G	Blues Jrs (Finland)
2010 Entry	205	7	Sawyer Hannay	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
2009 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2009 Entry	22	1	Jordan Schroeder	L	U. of Minnesota [WCHA]	165	18	24	42	14
2009 Entry	53	2	Anton Rodin	R	Brynas Jr. [Swe-Jr]	3	0	1	1	0
2009 Entry	83	3	Kevin Connauton	D	Western Michigan University [CCHA]	360	28	52	80	188
2009 Entry	113	4	Jeremy Price	D	Nepean Raiders [CJHL]
2009 Entry	143	5	Peter Andersson	D	Vastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2009 Entry	173	6	Joe Cannata	G	Merrimack College [H-East]
2009 Entry	187	7	Steven Anthony	L	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2008 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2008 Entry	10	1	Cody Hodgson	C	Brampton Battalion [OHL]	328	64	78	142	68
2008 Entry	41	2	Yann Sauve	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	8	0	0	0	0
2008 Entry	131	5	Prabh Rai	C	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2008 Entry	161	6	Mats Josten-Froshaug	C	Linkoping HC Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2008 Entry	191	7	Morgan Clark	G	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2007 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2007 Entry	25	1	Patrick White	C	Tri-City Storm [USHL]
2007 Entry	33	2	Taylor Ellington	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2007 Entry	145	5	Charles-Antoine Messier	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2007 Entry	146	5	Ilya Kablukov	W	CSKA Moscow [Russia]
2007 Entry	176	6	Taylor Matson	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2007 Entry	206	7	Dan Gendur	C	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2006 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2006 Entry	14	1	Michael Grabner	R	Spokane Chiefs [WHL]	640	175	101	276	110
2006 Entry	82	3	Daniel Rahimi	D	Bjorkloven Jr. [Sweden]
2006 Entry	163	6	Sergei Shirokov	R	CSKA Moscow [Russia]	8	1	0	1	2
2006 Entry	167	6	Juraj Simek	W	Kloten HC [Swiss-A]
2006 Entry	197	7	Evan Fuller	C	Prince George Cougars [WHL]
2005 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2005 Entry	10	1	Luc Bourdon	D	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]	36	2	0	2	24
2005 Entry	51	2	Mason Raymond	L	Camrose Kodiaks [AJHL]	546	115	136	251	156
2005 Entry	114	4	Alexandre Vincent	G	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2005 Entry	138	5	Matt Butcher	C	Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
2005 Entry	185	6	Kris Fredheim	D	Notre Dame Hounds [SJHL]	3	0	0	0	2
2005 Entry	205	7	Mario Bliznak	C	Dubnica Spartak HC [Slovak]	6	1	0	1

 

if you cant figure it out. Im seriously worried for you. 
 

hit me back with the prospect pool pre-Benning and let me know how well that all worked out and why the cupboards took so long to fill. 
 

What came first the chicken or the egg?

 

[JayDangles]

4 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Hahahahahahahhahahaha holy fuck this is hysterical. You’re clearly new here and I’ll send you one little picture to help you understand. After that, you’re on your on bud. 
 

2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	9	1	Bo Horvat	C	London Knights [OHL]	667	213	237	450	208
2013 Entry	24	1	Hunter Shinkaruk	L	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]	15	2	2	4	4
2013 Entry	85	3	Cole Cassels	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2013 Entry	115	4	Jordan Subban	D	Belleville Bulls [OHL]
2013 Entry	145	5	Anton Cederholm	D	Rogle Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	175	6	Mike Williamson	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]
2013 Entry	205	7	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	26	1	Brendan Gaunce	C	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	153	11	13	24	61
2012 Entry	57	2	Alexandre Mallet	C	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2012 Entry	147	5	Ben Hutton	D	Nepean Raiders [CCHL]	481	22	92	114	185
2012 Entry	177	6	Wesley Myron	F	Victoria Grizzlies [BCHL]
2012 Entry	207	7	Matthew Beattie	R	Exeter [N.H. H.S.]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	29	1	Nicklas Jensen	R	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	31	3	3	6	10
2011 Entry	71	3	David Honzik	G	Victoriaville Tigres [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	90	3	Alexandre Grenier	R	Quebec Remparts [QMJHL]	9	0	0	0	2
2011 Entry	101	4	Joseph LaBate	L	Holy Angels Academy (Minn.)	13	0	0	0	21
2011 Entry	120	4	Ludwig Blomstrand	L	Djurgardens Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2011 Entry	150	5	Frankie Corrado	D	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	76	3	5	8	40
2011 Entry	180	6	Pathrik Westerholm	L	Malmo Redhawks [Swe-1]
2011 Entry	210	7	Henrik Tommernes	D	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2010 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2010 Entry	115	4	Patrick McNally	D	Milton Academy [Mass.]
2010 Entry	145	5	Adam Polasek	D	Prince Edward Island Rocket [QMJHL]
2010 Entry	172	6	Alex Friesen	C	Niagara IceDogs [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2010 Entry	175	6	Jonathan Iilahti	G	Blues Jrs (Finland)
2010 Entry	205	7	Sawyer Hannay	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
2009 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2009 Entry	22	1	Jordan Schroeder	L	U. of Minnesota [WCHA]	165	18	24	42	14
2009 Entry	53	2	Anton Rodin	R	Brynas Jr. [Swe-Jr]	3	0	1	1	0
2009 Entry	83	3	Kevin Connauton	D	Western Michigan University [CCHA]	360	28	52	80	188
2009 Entry	113	4	Jeremy Price	D	Nepean Raiders [CJHL]
2009 Entry	143	5	Peter Andersson	D	Vastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2009 Entry	173	6	Joe Cannata	G	Merrimack College [H-East]
2009 Entry	187	7	Steven Anthony	L	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2008 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2008 Entry	10	1	Cody Hodgson	C	Brampton Battalion [OHL]	328	64	78	142	68
2008 Entry	41	2	Yann Sauve	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	8	0	0	0	0
2008 Entry	131	5	Prabh Rai	C	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2008 Entry	161	6	Mats Josten-Froshaug	C	Linkoping HC Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2008 Entry	191	7	Morgan Clark	G	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2007 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2007 Entry	25	1	Patrick White	C	Tri-City Storm [USHL]
2007 Entry	33	2	Taylor Ellington	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2007 Entry	145	5	Charles-Antoine Messier	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2007 Entry	146	5	Ilya Kablukov	W	CSKA Moscow [Russia]
2007 Entry	176	6	Taylor Matson	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2007 Entry	206	7	Dan Gendur	C	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2006 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2006 Entry	14	1	Michael Grabner	R	Spokane Chiefs [WHL]	640	175	101	276	110
2006 Entry	82	3	Daniel Rahimi	D	Bjorkloven Jr. [Sweden]
2006 Entry	163	6	Sergei Shirokov	R	CSKA Moscow [Russia]	8	1	0	1	2
2006 Entry	167	6	Juraj Simek	W	Kloten HC [Swiss-A]
2006 Entry	197	7	Evan Fuller	C	Prince George Cougars [WHL]
2005 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2005 Entry	10	1	Luc Bourdon	D	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]	36	2	0	2	24
2005 Entry	51	2	Mason Raymond	L	Camrose Kodiaks [AJHL]	546	115	136	251	156
2005 Entry	114	4	Alexandre Vincent	G	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2005 Entry	138	5	Matt Butcher	C	Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
2005 Entry	185	6	Kris Fredheim	D	Notre Dame Hounds [SJHL]	3	0	0	0	2
2005 Entry	205	7	Mario Bliznak	C	Dubnica Spartak HC [Slovak]	6	1	0	1

 

if you cant figure it out. Im seriously worried for you. 
 

hit me back with the prospect pool pre-Benning and let me know how well that all worked out and why the cupboards took so long to fill. 
 

What came first the chicken or the egg?

 

Lol this is beautiful.

You couldn't even put together a team good enough to compete in the WPHL from the players Gillis drafted.

 

RIP Luc.

[AnthonyG]

12 minutes ago, SV. said:

Whatever success happens with the Vancouver Canucks going forward, be it a player winning a trophy, the team receiving an accolade, or even winning a Stanley Cup, the names recognized will not acknowledge or feature Jim Benning  

His "team" is not a thing and will never be a thing  

This here says so much more about you as a person than as a fan. You come across as a bitter, heartbroken jealous individual who hasnt gotten over their ex and continues trying to convince themself you are over that person. You hate a guy so strongly for having to rebuild this shithole with zero trade chips that had no say in where they were going. An empty prospect pool, aged out core worth next to nothing. Yet you are so thankless for Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Miller and Boeser. We have guys showing promise in Hoglander, potential NHLers in the farm finally, Silovs, Podkolzin, Karlsson. It just shows how deeply bitter you are as a person, I will not give any further time to such a person.

[SV.]

14 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Hahahahahahahhahahaha holy fuck this is hysterical. You’re clearly new here and I’ll send you one little picture to help you understand. After that, you’re on your on bud. 
 

2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	9	1	Bo Horvat	C	London Knights [OHL]	667	213	237	450	208
2013 Entry	24	1	Hunter Shinkaruk	L	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]	15	2	2	4	4
2013 Entry	85	3	Cole Cassels	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2013 Entry	115	4	Jordan Subban	D	Belleville Bulls [OHL]
2013 Entry	145	5	Anton Cederholm	D	Rogle Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	175	6	Mike Williamson	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]
2013 Entry	205	7	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	26	1	Brendan Gaunce	C	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	153	11	13	24	61
2012 Entry	57	2	Alexandre Mallet	C	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2012 Entry	147	5	Ben Hutton	D	Nepean Raiders [CCHL]	481	22	92	114	185
2012 Entry	177	6	Wesley Myron	F	Victoria Grizzlies [BCHL]
2012 Entry	207	7	Matthew Beattie	R	Exeter [N.H. H.S.]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	29	1	Nicklas Jensen	R	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	31	3	3	6	10
2011 Entry	71	3	David Honzik	G	Victoriaville Tigres [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	90	3	Alexandre Grenier	R	Quebec Remparts [QMJHL]	9	0	0	0	2
2011 Entry	101	4	Joseph LaBate	L	Holy Angels Academy (Minn.)	13	0	0	0	21
2011 Entry	120	4	Ludwig Blomstrand	L	Djurgardens Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2011 Entry	150	5	Frankie Corrado	D	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	76	3	5	8	40
2011 Entry	180	6	Pathrik Westerholm	L	Malmo Redhawks [Swe-1]
2011 Entry	210	7	Henrik Tommernes	D	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2010 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2010 Entry	115	4	Patrick McNally	D	Milton Academy [Mass.]
2010 Entry	145	5	Adam Polasek	D	Prince Edward Island Rocket [QMJHL]
2010 Entry	172	6	Alex Friesen	C	Niagara IceDogs [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2010 Entry	175	6	Jonathan Iilahti	G	Blues Jrs (Finland)
2010 Entry	205	7	Sawyer Hannay	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
2009 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2009 Entry	22	1	Jordan Schroeder	L	U. of Minnesota [WCHA]	165	18	24	42	14
2009 Entry	53	2	Anton Rodin	R	Brynas Jr. [Swe-Jr]	3	0	1	1	0
2009 Entry	83	3	Kevin Connauton	D	Western Michigan University [CCHA]	360	28	52	80	188
2009 Entry	113	4	Jeremy Price	D	Nepean Raiders [CJHL]
2009 Entry	143	5	Peter Andersson	D	Vastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2009 Entry	173	6	Joe Cannata	G	Merrimack College [H-East]
2009 Entry	187	7	Steven Anthony	L	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2008 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2008 Entry	10	1	Cody Hodgson	C	Brampton Battalion [OHL]	328	64	78	142	68
2008 Entry	41	2	Yann Sauve	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	8	0	0	0	0
2008 Entry	131	5	Prabh Rai	C	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2008 Entry	161	6	Mats Josten-Froshaug	C	Linkoping HC Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2008 Entry	191	7	Morgan Clark	G	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2007 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2007 Entry	25	1	Patrick White	C	Tri-City Storm [USHL]
2007 Entry	33	2	Taylor Ellington	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2007 Entry	145	5	Charles-Antoine Messier	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2007 Entry	146	5	Ilya Kablukov	W	CSKA Moscow [Russia]
2007 Entry	176	6	Taylor Matson	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2007 Entry	206	7	Dan Gendur	C	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2006 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2006 Entry	14	1	Michael Grabner	R	Spokane Chiefs [WHL]	640	175	101	276	110
2006 Entry	82	3	Daniel Rahimi	D	Bjorkloven Jr. [Sweden]
2006 Entry	163	6	Sergei Shirokov	R	CSKA Moscow [Russia]	8	1	0	1	2
2006 Entry	167	6	Juraj Simek	W	Kloten HC [Swiss-A]
2006 Entry	197	7	Evan Fuller	C	Prince George Cougars [WHL]
2005 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2005 Entry	10	1	Luc Bourdon	D	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]	36	2	0	2	24
2005 Entry	51	2	Mason Raymond	L	Camrose Kodiaks [AJHL]	546	115	136	251	156
2005 Entry	114	4	Alexandre Vincent	G	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2005 Entry	138	5	Matt Butcher	C	Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
2005 Entry	185	6	Kris Fredheim	D	Notre Dame Hounds [SJHL]	3	0	0	0	2
2005 Entry	205	7	Mario Bliznak	C	Dubnica Spartak HC [Slovak]	6	1	0	1

 

if you cant figure it out. Im seriously worried for you. 
 

hit me back with the prospect pool pre-Benning and let me know how well that all worked out and why the cupboards took so long to fill. 
 

What came first the chicken or the egg?

 

What are we meant to learn from this?  That teams draft more proficiently and have more draft capital in the beginning of a cycle than towards the end?  No offence, but that's neither insightful nor a "gotcha".

Nevertheless, the draft is just one component.  Pro scouting, asset management, trading, free-agency, etc., are all components that the former GM failed at in comparison to his predecessor/successor and his contemporaries in other organizations.

2 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

This here says so much more about you as a person than as a fan. You come across as a bitter, heartbroken jealous individual who hasnt gotten over their ex and continues trying to convince themself you are over that person. You hate a guy so strongly for having to rebuild this shithole with zero trade chips that had no say in where they were going. An empty prospect pool, aged out core worth next to nothing. Yet you are so thankless for Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Miller and Boeser. We have guys showing promise in Hoglander, potential NHLers in the farm finally, Silovs, Podkolzin, Karlsson. It just shows how deeply bitter you are as a person, I will not give any further time to such a person.

Nope.  If Rutherford and Allvin got fired tomorrow, the credit would go to the next guy(s).  It's how it works.

All anybody needs to do is look at the language you use to describe Gillis's tenure and compare it to how you describe Benning's tenure to see that you're projecting here (probably in both ways given your oddly specific analogy lol).  It's evident you still feel scorned the former GM didn't get to see out building his "team", which for the rest of us, was a great thing as we are now finally trending upward, or at the very least, not continually trending downward.

Again, I need you to sit on that and come to terms with it.

[canuck73_3]

30 minutes ago, SV. said:

How ironic.  Talk of mob mentality and "the blind" when the GM you rep was literally known for having a cult of followers and "fans" ("Bros" as they were known) that were unable to think, critique, and analyze for themselves about the team they supported.

So, tell me then, if this is the nature of rebuilds, why has virtually no other rebuild gone the way that this one did in Vancouver?  Why haven't other teams been cap-strapped, prospect-barren, and the like for nearly a decade? 

You see, while your first response will probably be to do as the former GM often did - blame everybody and everything else - the easiest explanation to accept is that the execution and decision-making simply wasn't good enough.  For your own sake, you should abandon the sunk cost you're holding onto and simply come to terms that it isn't a coincidence that all the other GMs who have worked here managed just fine.  And if that isn't good enough, come to see that the GMs outside of Vancouver, in both the present and immediate past, have never come close to seeing the lows that Vancouver saw for nearly a decade.

Perhaps, it's time to use your brain and see reality for what it is.  And I'll help you get started with a simple statement to sit on below:

Whatever success happens with the Vancouver Canucks going forward, be it a player winning a trophy, the team receiving an accolade, or even winning a Stanley Cup, the names recognized will not acknowledge or feature Jim Benning  

His "team" is not a thing and will never be a thing  

Bennings name wouldn't be on the cup but his fingerprints are there. Denying it is deliberately being obtuse so long as Demko, Pettersson, Hughes and Miller are here those are 4 massive pieces he brought in. 

[kilgore]

4 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

hit me back with the prospect pool pre-Benning and let me know how well that all worked out and why the cupboards took so long to fill. 
 

What came first the chicken or the egg?

 

 

Why don't you understand the most simplest basic concepts?  I guess if your hero is Jim, macaroni, Benning its no wonder.

 

Gillis had more important things on his mind.  Yes there are times in an NHL team that are more important than draft prospects..not very often but when you are putting the finishing touches on a Cup run, its not your top priority.  And two, you take no consideration of the fact that we were picking pretty low based on Gillis's stellar work keeping the team near the top of the standings.  Compared to Benning's involuntary high draft pick positions.

 

And even then.....Gillis only traded away 1 first round pick to attempt to bolster the D on the way to the SCF.  Benning traded away 3, and only one got back anything worth it...Miller. Who was the right pick but probably the wrong age cycle for this team.  Also it should be noted that Gillis came in as an ex agent with no knowledge of amateur draft scouting and so left it to the staff he had, with no reason to believe they didn't know what they were doing. Benning meanwhile, came in as a Drafting wizard who would be fully involved in that department.  Viola...Virtanen!

 

The cupboards should have been easily filled when Benning came on board. Based on his self proclaimed expertise, and the miserable position he had the team playing in for most of his tenure.  They took so damn long to fill because HE KEPT TRADING THEM AWAY OR GIVING UP ON THEM TOO EARLY!  

He left the team with bare cupboards without even the good excuse that Gillis had. 

 

Benning,

 

 

 

[SV.]

Just now, canuck73_3 said:

Bennings name wouldn't be on the cup but his fingerprints are there. Denying it is deliberately being obtuse so long as Demko, Pettersson, Hughes and Miller are here those are 4 massive pieces he brought in. 

You're correct.  In the same way that Yzerman's fingerprints are on BriseBois's cups, Tallon's on Bowman's, Patrick and Shero's on Rutherford's, O'Connell and Gorton on Chiarelli's and Benning's, and so forth.

My point is the history books and fan accounts won't and don't care enough to go back to the genesis.  It only matters who actually got it done.

[AnthonyG]

6 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

Why don't you understand the most simplest basic concepts?  I guess if your hero is Jim, macaroni, Benning its no wonder.

 

Gillis had more important things on his mind.  Yes there are times in an NHL team that are more important than draft prospects..not very often but when you are putting the finishing touches on a Cup run, its not your top priority.  And two, you take no consideration of the fact that we were picking pretty low based on Gillis's stellar work keeping the team near the top of the standings.  Compared to Benning's involuntary high draft pick positions.

 

And even then.....Gillis only traded away 1 first round pick to attempt to bolster the D on the way to the SCF.  Benning traded away 3, and only one got back anything worth it...Miller. Who was the right pick but probably the wrong age cycle for this team.  Also it should be noted that Gillis came in as an ex agent with no knowledge of amateur draft scouting and so left it to the staff he had, with no reason to believe they didn't know what they were doing. Benning meanwhile, came in as a Drafting wizard who would be fully involved in that department.  Viola...Virtanen!

 

The cupboards should have been easily filled when Benning came on board. Based on his self proclaimed expertise, and the miserable position he had the team playing in for most of his tenure.  They took so damn long to fill because HE KEPT TRADING THEM AWAY OR GIVING UP ON THEM TOO EARLY!  

He left the team with bare cupboards without even the good excuse that Gillis had. 

 

Benning,

 

 

 

Proof read your post and come back to me with the proper numbers please.

shouldnt be hard to count to 2. Its not 1 skip 2 straight 3

[Alflives]

35 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Hahahahahahahhahahaha holy fuck this is hysterical. You’re clearly new here and I’ll send you one little picture to help you understand. After that, you’re on your on bud. 
 

2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	9	1	Bo Horvat	C	London Knights [OHL]	667	213	237	450	208
2013 Entry	24	1	Hunter Shinkaruk	L	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]	15	2	2	4	4
2013 Entry	85	3	Cole Cassels	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2013 Entry	115	4	Jordan Subban	D	Belleville Bulls [OHL]
2013 Entry	145	5	Anton Cederholm	D	Rogle Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	175	6	Mike Williamson	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]
2013 Entry	205	7	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	26	1	Brendan Gaunce	C	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	153	11	13	24	61
2012 Entry	57	2	Alexandre Mallet	C	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2012 Entry	147	5	Ben Hutton	D	Nepean Raiders [CCHL]	481	22	92	114	185
2012 Entry	177	6	Wesley Myron	F	Victoria Grizzlies [BCHL]
2012 Entry	207	7	Matthew Beattie	R	Exeter [N.H. H.S.]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	29	1	Nicklas Jensen	R	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	31	3	3	6	10
2011 Entry	71	3	David Honzik	G	Victoriaville Tigres [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	90	3	Alexandre Grenier	R	Quebec Remparts [QMJHL]	9	0	0	0	2
2011 Entry	101	4	Joseph LaBate	L	Holy Angels Academy (Minn.)	13	0	0	0	21
2011 Entry	120	4	Ludwig Blomstrand	L	Djurgardens Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2011 Entry	150	5	Frankie Corrado	D	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	76	3	5	8	40
2011 Entry	180	6	Pathrik Westerholm	L	Malmo Redhawks [Swe-1]
2011 Entry	210	7	Henrik Tommernes	D	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2010 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2010 Entry	115	4	Patrick McNally	D	Milton Academy [Mass.]
2010 Entry	145	5	Adam Polasek	D	Prince Edward Island Rocket [QMJHL]
2010 Entry	172	6	Alex Friesen	C	Niagara IceDogs [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2010 Entry	175	6	Jonathan Iilahti	G	Blues Jrs (Finland)
2010 Entry	205	7	Sawyer Hannay	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
2009 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2009 Entry	22	1	Jordan Schroeder	L	U. of Minnesota [WCHA]	165	18	24	42	14
2009 Entry	53	2	Anton Rodin	R	Brynas Jr. [Swe-Jr]	3	0	1	1	0
2009 Entry	83	3	Kevin Connauton	D	Western Michigan University [CCHA]	360	28	52	80	188
2009 Entry	113	4	Jeremy Price	D	Nepean Raiders [CJHL]
2009 Entry	143	5	Peter Andersson	D	Vastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2009 Entry	173	6	Joe Cannata	G	Merrimack College [H-East]
2009 Entry	187	7	Steven Anthony	L	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2008 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2008 Entry	10	1	Cody Hodgson	C	Brampton Battalion [OHL]	328	64	78	142	68
2008 Entry	41	2	Yann Sauve	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	8	0	0	0	0
2008 Entry	131	5	Prabh Rai	C	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2008 Entry	161	6	Mats Josten-Froshaug	C	Linkoping HC Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2008 Entry	191	7	Morgan Clark	G	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2007 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2007 Entry	25	1	Patrick White	C	Tri-City Storm [USHL]
2007 Entry	33	2	Taylor Ellington	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2007 Entry	145	5	Charles-Antoine Messier	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2007 Entry	146	5	Ilya Kablukov	W	CSKA Moscow [Russia]
2007 Entry	176	6	Taylor Matson	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2007 Entry	206	7	Dan Gendur	C	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2006 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2006 Entry	14	1	Michael Grabner	R	Spokane Chiefs [WHL]	640	175	101	276	110
2006 Entry	82	3	Daniel Rahimi	D	Bjorkloven Jr. [Sweden]
2006 Entry	163	6	Sergei Shirokov	R	CSKA Moscow [Russia]	8	1	0	1	2
2006 Entry	167	6	Juraj Simek	W	Kloten HC [Swiss-A]
2006 Entry	197	7	Evan Fuller	C	Prince George Cougars [WHL]
2005 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2005 Entry	10	1	Luc Bourdon	D	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]	36	2	0	2	24
2005 Entry	51	2	Mason Raymond	L	Camrose Kodiaks [AJHL]	546	115	136	251	156
2005 Entry	114	4	Alexandre Vincent	G	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2005 Entry	138	5	Matt Butcher	C	Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
2005 Entry	185	6	Kris Fredheim	D	Notre Dame Hounds [SJHL]	3	0	0	0	2
2005 Entry	205	7	Mario Bliznak	C	Dubnica Spartak HC [Slovak]	6	1	0	1

 

if you cant figure it out. Im seriously worried for you. 
 

hit me back with the prospect pool pre-Benning and let me know how well that all worked out and why the cupboards took so long to fill. 
 

What came first the chicken or the egg?

 

Gillis was using picks and prospects as currency to get his club tge Club the. Cup. He came closer than any other GM and won two Presidents’ trophies. This is inarguably fact. Gillis was GM during our most successful era. 

[DSVII]

Ah, I was wondering how long it would take before those no context HockeyDB draft dumps happened. 

 

 

 

 

[kilgore]

9 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Proof read your post and come back to me with the proper numbers please.

shouldnt be hard to count to 2. Its not 1 skip 2 straight 3

 

 

[LillStrimma]

56 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Bennings name wouldn't be on the cup but his fingerprints are there. Denying it is deliberately being obtuse so long as Demko, Pettersson, Hughes and Miller are here those are 4 massive pieces he brought in. 

And Gillis, Hronek is because of gillis  

[The Lock]

7 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

 

Funny because you guys and countless others will sit here and blame him for Virtanen and OJ and then give the credit elsewhere for Pettersson/Hughes. You pick and choose when its convenient to and suits your narrative.

 

You hear endless bitching and complaining about 2 fuckin picks TWO. But complete silence on everybody else.

 

https://forum.canucks.com/topic/398200-draft-edition-benning-vs-the-world/#comment-15938949
 

maybe by the end of that write up, you’ll understand why I think Benning was better at his job than most will give him credit for.

 

Just because someone says a GM is bad is doesn't mean every move they made is bad. If you hate someone's opinion does that mean you have to hate that person? Kind of a silly stance is it not? Rather hard to even get through life like that arguably.

 

So of course people are going to blame and give credit because it's being objective. It's saying "I dislike this GM for these reasons but not everything was bad."

 

I bet you do the exact same thing with other GMs that you yourself hate, so why have unreasonable expectations for others?

Edited November 23, 2023 by The Lock

[AnthonyG]

43 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

Just because someone says a GM is bad is doesn't mean every move they made is bad. If you hate someone's opinion does that mean you have to hate that person? Kind of a silly stance is it not? Rather hard to even get through life like that arguably.

 

So of course people are going to blame and give credit because it's being objective. It's saying "I dislike this GM for these reasons but not everything was bad."

 

I bet you do the exact same thing with other GMs that you yourself hate, so why have unreasonable expectations for others?

Honestly, Go look at my posts and replies. Show me where I blamed Gillis for what he did. Look here and go back and look at the old forums if you want to call me out. I have given Gillis credit, I never blamed him for going all in, but I unlike the rest of these trolls understand what the cost of going all in meant. Which was a MAJOR set back to the next guy who took over.

We are reluctant this only took 5 years to find all the major core pieces. What had Edmonton accomplished with all their top picks the last 15 years? NJD 11 straight missed playoff appearances…. Arizona, Buffalo, Columbus, Florida, Colorado…. There has been soo much more pain and suffering the last 15-20 years that took a lot of these teams to reach contender status than it has taken us to turn heads. The 2021-22 season was a huge indicator as to what this team is truly made of.

I have supported every single GM i havent talked shit about any one of them unprovoked. If people want to hone in on one guy for previous management’s failures for nearly a decade, I will gladly remind them and light a fire under their ass.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by AnthonyG

[AnthonyG]

2 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

 

Now for your ABC’s and then we can chat.

[AnthonyG]

2 hours ago, DSVII said:

Ah, I was wondering how long it would take before those no context HockeyDB draft dumps happened. 

 

 

 

 

Ahh Mr. Kingofnocontext himself. Lmao how nice of you to show up and hide behind your little bandwagon buddies

[filthy animal]

5 hours ago, DSVII said:

Ah, I was wondering how long it would take before those no context HockeyDB draft dumps happened. 

 

 

 

 

And here i am waiting for another youtube link to chris gears interview

[conquestofbaguettes]

On 11/21/2023 at 9:55 PM, The Lock said:

Must think? No. I don't think that at all. I'm just saying we don't know what the scenario would be. The fact that you need to put words in my mouth tells me you have no argument here.

 

 

1) yes, you very much do think that.

 

Your entire argument is rooted in the idea we all have complete free will to do whatever we want whenever we want in everything we do. Internal or external barriers don't exist.

 

And I don't need to put words in your mouth. You're doing that all on your own quite well. I'm just cutting to the chase.

 

2) Yes, we do actually know.  That's why we got what we got in the first place.

 

The organization wanted to ice a "competitive" product. And that was happening regardless who was at the helm. Yes, they'd still be hiring free agents with what was available, and likely paying too much for too long to convince players to come to a losing rebuilder. They had holes in roster and wanted bonafide nhlers to fill them.

 

So... what exactly is it do you think this other miracle GM would be able to do? The vast majority of the moves they made were borne of the initial plan laid at their feet. And there was no changing that.

 

And I love that you point the finger, make claims of "ignorance and madness" and "Benning love" while completely failing to understand what's being said to begin with.

 

Wear a helmet kid.

 

 

[conquestofbaguettes]

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

I've painfully read through this entire thread, and it seems like a lot of writing for what amounts to an argument from you made up of a lot of conjecture and excuses and hypocrisy.

 

Which means you've failed to understand what's being said unfortunately.... and an extremely ironic sentiment considering the contentious topic and your overall position on it, tbh.

 

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

You defend Benning with lines like these...

 

"Am I defending Benning and his management squad? Perhaps. I think they are, for the most part, scapegoats making the best of a tough situation."

 

"Lest we forget, Benning and co. lasted 8 years. By this we can reasonably deduce that their work kept the dollars and viewership levels to an adequate level for ownership. They did the best they could to balance the needs of the present and the needs of the future. "

 

"Even Gillis or Allvin would look like shit if they were dealt the same cards the Benning regime was atxhat time."

 

And then say at points that you are not defending him.

But you have been so lets look at your defence.

JB was a "scapegoat", but at the same time was "making the best of a tough situation" and "did the best they could to balance the needs..."

NO he did not!  He did nothing near to this. In fact he made the worst out of a tough situation. And he made the situation tougher to deal with every season with added headaches to deal with from the signings the season before.

 

There is no "defence." Only an attempt to explore past the usual surface level narratives which you and a few others here seem so vehemently want to defend. You act like I'm attacking your religion here. "The scientific method may lead people to believe there is no god!?? There may be other explanations for a given phenomenon other than god??!! HERETIC!!! DEVIL WORSHIPPER!!"

 

That is exactly how you guys sound.

 

Yes, most of what people say on the matter is scapegoating. I already explained why in the very first post. Go read it again. Or don't. I don't give a fuck.

 

Secondly, continuously thinking in terms of false dichotomies ala 'pro-anti,us-them/black-white' will bring you no where closer to understanding. But then you aren't really trying to understand here, are you.  You're just here to defend your religion. Storming in trying to string me up on the cross labelled as a devil worshipper as we can all see from your above comments.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

Now lets talk about what you claim to be actually focused on...ownership's role. What I see that is a common thread from you on this topic is.......Aquilini like God handing down the tablets, gave the instruction to ice a competitive team no matter what...even if it harms long term sustainability, or building a true contender...and so what's a poor GM to do?.  Certainly not try and convince him otherwise.  That not only did the GM's job not really matter much but even the players he brought in didn't matter. Nothing would have worked.  Because it was all managed/sabotaged from above him. Us fans simply had to wait it out. Like an extended major penalty.

 

An owner is still at the behest of the marketplace and the demands of the business, big guy. I can tell you've never owned a business or have any concept of how an organization is run. Whether it's a small shop with a dozen employees, or a billion dollar company with 1,001. This underlying relationship to the marketplace, producer/consumer, does not change.  An NHL hockey club is trying to sell a product like any other business. Yes, there is always a fight between the needs of the now and the needs of the future when you're trying to sell a lackluster product and theorizing a future product being sought. But that's the rub.

 

For the idealistic intentional tankers, anything that sacrificed some potential for the future was a bad move. And technically, they would be correct.

 

But when you account for actually existing reality, why tanking for this club was never a realistic scenario due to the plethora of reason I've continuously outlined, you understand why the best path doesn't necessarily mean realistic path. And it's even hard to blame anyone when you look at the dirty details. Life simply ain't like manager mode in CHEL.

 

And stating  "convince the owner otherwise" shows how completely naive and idealistic these claim really are. Even Trevor Linden couldn't convince the organization to take a different path. Yet you expect a GM to be able to change that? No. fuck no. And if he said no they'd tell him to take a hike like they did Linden and replace him with someone else that would do what they wanted. And then you'd be saying the same thing about the next guy.   How long you think you'd last at your job if told you boss a hard no to something he told you to do? Get real.

 

And intentional tanking=building a true contender talk is pure bs.  Lots of ways to rebuild a team. Some ways better than others? May theoretically get you to a destination faster for longer? Potentially. But theres no guarantees. And that doesn't mean you can't be a legit contender just because you didn't rebuild exactly like X, Pure fantasy. Every cup winner has a combination of drafted players, trades, and free agents.  The point of a rebuild is to acquire a core of stars to build around. Some paths just might take longer than others given the variables and conditions therein. ie. a team starting from ground zero will take longer than a team which has assets that will return 1st round picks. And choosing to stay competitive losing assets to keep asses in the seats for the duration is certainly a big determining factor.. perhaps THE biggest one for this past rebuild.

 

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

But the point of many on here is why would any new GM, who cared about his reputation at all, accept doing what I hear you agree was the wrong choice, just to cash a paycheck?  Well Benning would I guess. So is your argument that Human Greed is the culprit? Benning just couldn't resist so give him a break? And that even Gillis or Allvin would look like shit in the same circumstances.  That they'd also take the money and run?

For one, Gilis was never in this circumstance, he had a team on the cusp. It required a different kind of managing. Bringing in good support players, signing core players to team friendly deals to keep more of them around. Which he did very well. And only traded away one first round pick in all of that. While gifting Benning two first round picks for his first draft.  He also left Benning with a team chalk full of SCF grizzled veterans to wheel and deal.  There's a reason teams like the Canucks were interested in a player like Cole, at 34, at 3 mill, even for one year.  The 2014 team was not a team of "dogshit".

 

Nothing to do with reputation. and nothing to do with sabotage. What's being said is that there is a plan in place that was decided by your bosses. Here is what we're doing. Would you like to do the job or not? No? Bye. Yes? Let's get to work. Shitty circumstances to have to work in and navigate? No doubt about it. Stay competitive while also trying to rebuild is no easy task. But that's the job. And yes, even Gillis or Allvin would look like shit GMs with that mandate on the table. They would be trading some futures and signing stop gaps to stay competitive just the same. 

 

Giliis was never in this circumstance? Well no shit. He had an established team full of stars pushing for a cup. Benning had a team full of aging assets and nothing in the pipeline. And yeah they were grizzled alright. Nobody was giving up 1st round picks for them the were so grizzled. And moving on from them when they may have been able too theoretically get more from them was never an option.  Completely different circumstances between the two.  It's basically apples and oranges.

 

Also, I wasn't talking about the 2014 (retooled team) being complete dogshit. But rather the many "rebuild" years after that. eg. linden vey, granlund, etc etc.

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

But around the league, and in fact with this present management team in Vancouver, you see evidence of good managers being able to convince ownership to go in the right direction. Even if there is pain ahead. Like Gorton did with the Rangers.  You seem to believe that Aquilinis are some god like figures who thundered down their edict and if it wasn't Benning it would some other schmuck doing their bidding.   But you don't know that!  JR sure as shit must have said enough to convince Francesco to stand back.

 

There is no "convincing" here though. For example, do you think Kyle Dubas could have convinced the Fenway Sports Group and their board of directors to tear down in Penguins? We all know that's the right move right now. Aging vets, and they're loading up with a guy like Erik Karlsson to go on another run? We know how this movie ends.   Once again, just because it makes the most sense on paper and the best way to rebuild doesn't necessarily make it a realistic outcome.  Sid, Geno, and Letang arent going anywhere. Just like Hank and Danny werent going anywhere. So what do you do.   Exactly what they are doing.

 

And JR is in a bit of different position though. Coming in when he can put in the final touches on the previous work of others (like Gillis with Nonis and Burkes team.) We know Aqua wouldnt pull that stuff with JR(if all the previous rumours of meddling are true that is.) JR would quit at the drop of a hat. Too old for BS.  And a close friend of his did an interview stating he knew Frankie has way too much respect for JR to do that anyway. Which I fully believe. JR has cups. Knows what they need to do and how to do it. He likely didn't "have to say" much of anything. His reputation and experience in the league speaks for itself.

 

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

The second part of it is that even IF Benning believed he had no choice but to do a retool with an aging core...which is dumb...he fucked it up royally.  This Aqua retool didn't stand a chance because he was a horrible GM. Especially at pro scouting. And contract negotiations.

 

Now that we have a younger core entering their prime, retooling is the only option.  And thank the Hockey Gods, at least we have managers who know how to pro scout and deal with contracts and cap issues, to give it at least a chance in hell of working. Because its way harder than a straight ahead traditional rebuild.

 

And we have to get into the dirty details if we want to make those kinds of judgments.  There was good. There was bad. Not everything will be a home run for any GM... especially if were judging through that "not tank rebuild so all stay competivie moves are bad" lens.   It's simply not that cut and dry.

 

That core you speak of came from the previous regime remember. Just as Gillis core came from Nonis and Burke.

This isn't to say Giliis or AV and PR arent taking them to the next step, but give credit where credit is due.  And i don't agree a retool is harder than a rebuild. its harder to find a new all star players worth building around in the first place, drafting, developing, etc. and i don't even think its close. The easy part is finding the supporting pieces after the fact.

 

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

So much word salad is all. 

Your whole argument can be summed up....Owner is God....because...privilege, Capitalism? .  Benning no choice but to be a bad GM. He was "just following orders" and would have been taken out, tied to the Roger Neilson statue and shot if he didn't humour the owner.  And a new Benning clone would come in to replace him. Besides Gillis (who got us to a SCF) was worse somehow, so that lets Benning off the hook.

 

Dismissing as "word salad" is great indication you simply don't understand the concepts being discussed or how they are being applied.  There's no letting anyone off the hook here. I'm challenging what people are ON THE HOOK for what in the first place.

 

I happen to put the reality of business at the center, but then even that isn't about "blame" per se. Just a shit fucking reality we all have to deal with in terms of life and society itself. I dont like it either. But that's just the way it is. And looking at a hockey club here is no different. At the mercy of the same market as any other business in a market economy.   But if that's just more 'word salad' to you i might suggest digging into some macro structure economics.

 

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

And after all that, this is the killer:

"And I bet if you asked Francesco directly, even he personally would've preferred to take a different approach."

WTF?  Doesn't this eliminate your entire argument?  ie...Why didn't he then????

 

It doesn't eliminate the argument. It goes directly to the point!

 

Exactly.  Why didn't he then? Why would the organization consciously choose the worst rebuild plan possible??  stay competitive... while rebuilding?? what possible reasons could there be for this billion dollar company to do that. 

 

seems pretty obvious. and see points above.

 

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

All in all it was BOTH Bennings horrible management, combined with a Musk like, deluded owner who confused getting lucky in the real estate business meaning he was a genius in everything else.  They propped each other up, and covered for each other, to the detriment of the team and us fans for nearly a decade.

 

Its over now.  Why do we keep getting these Benning excuse makers that pop up about once a month on CDC and CFF?

 

No, and no benning is not the devil.

 

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

I'd LOVE to trade the owners in.  But we can't. But they are human, and can have their thinking changed by smart, persuasive experienced respected hockey figures. Luckily for us.

 

Go Canucks Go!  Which is all any of us want. Why don't you Benning Bros just fade away and move on?  Stop with the new OPs on the topic every few weeks. That nightmare is over.  Lets all cheer on this new winning era!!!

 

No "thinking is changed." Only the conditions in which the team exists and what they have to work with. Concerns with a good product are different than the concerns with a bad one.

 

And i could ask you the same. Why don't you and all the toxic religious zealots move on? You're the ones fighting so hard against any challenge to your holy texts  of hatred. It's pretty funny. 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by conquestofbaguettes

[IBatch]

18 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

it was actually 7 years but okay. 
Glad you can count. Shows how much you pay attention lol.

 

Considering Pettersson was ranked anywhere from 5-20 and mostly on the outside of the top 10, you need to be dead fuckin certain you’re taking that risk. The rest were taken quite close to where they ranked.

 

Cap recapture? Are just ignorant or completely oblivious? This little thing that happened when Luongo retired early? Handing a very sizeable cap penalty to our organization.

 

Name these players who sat on the bench, were paid moderate-high salaries to play in the AHL are on other teams being paid? lol careful now, Allvin penalized us for how many years because of a knee jerk reaction out of panic? 
i could rip into this new management much harder in much less time spent with how many fucking stupid choices they have already made IN UNDER TWO FUCKING YEARS than you can with “8” years of Benning. I’d say the alarm bells should already going off if you want to complain about some under performers that led to buyouts or cap dumps.

 

 

 

which names are you referring to?

COVID?

flat cap?

18 games in 30 days to start a season, 1 month shut down and no Petey for over half a season, 19 games in 30 days to finish the season AFTER COVID destroyed us?

Elias Petterssons extended hot boy summer? Pointless 24 games in the first 40?? Missed playoffs by 3 fucking wins? 
2nd round game 7 while rebuilding?

 

2021 no petey and COVID decimating us plus that insane schedule.. 24th. That aint the bottom and that season was hell due to a virus that caused a global pandemic incase you missed it while hiding under your bridge.

 

2021-22 18th?????? Benning fired, No changes made, Bottom of the league?? Say no to crack.

2022-23 22nd lmfao PA and JR finished lower than the Bennings team the year prior hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAJA OMG

 

Like really dude??? You wanna blame a GM who had to rebuild, for where he finished in the standings??? Keep reaching for straws and moving goal posts.

 

CAN YOU READ?? I AM CAPSLOCK TO HELP YOU READ BECAUSE I ALREADY SAID WHY. HE BUILT THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR PLAYER DEVELOPMENT RIGHT HERE IN OUR OWN BACK YARD, RFA NEGOTIATIONS, NAVIGATING THROUGH A FLAT CAP WHILE STILL GETTING NHL PLAYERS LIKE SCHMIDT AND HOLTBY TO FIT IN A FLAT CAP ON SHORT TERM. IAN CLARK, THE TWINS, BRACKETT. IDENTIFYING ISSUES IN OUR SCOUTING DEPARTMENT AND MAKING CHANGES TO HELP BRING SUCCESS, LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE HE EMPLOYED. MANAGING TO MOVE FAN FAVOURITES AND GET SOME VALUE IN RETURN. MOVING DAHLEN OUT ASAP AFTER FINDING OUT ABOUT HIS CHARACTER ISSUES AND GETTING KARLSSON.

NO GM IS PERFECT BUT HE WAS FAR FROM BAD

JB gets a lot of flak, some deservedly, some not so much.   Don't die on that hill though.   

 

His biggest mistakes were spending to the cap.   Made zero sense while we should be rebuilding.   This current regime is going to be paying for that for the better part of a decade.  

 

The other mistakes are well hashed.   Agree that you can't acknowledge the bad without the good too either, the best move he made was the Miller trade.   And if he hadn't bunged up his cap so badly, covid years he'd of had a great out.   Because we'd of had the space to make some serious moves.  

 

With context things don't look so bad as far a JB goes.   Fully expected a long long time before we'd be contenders again.   Kind of ridiculous expectation.   For 9 years we drafted just Co-Ho and Hutton before Horvat lol.    And Gillis only ever traded one first.  

 

Benning shot himself and the club completely by not letting all that cap slide, and instead going after the late great but no longer that great OEL.   By far the worst thing he did, LE signing looks like signing Schenn compared to that.    

 

In the end, JB wasn't the finisher we needed.    Sure wouldn't want him right now.     Big difference between the Nonis firing, and JB's.  

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

His biggest mistakes were spending to the cap.   Made zero sense while we should be rebuilding.   This current regime is going to be paying for that for the better part of a decade.  

Yes hindsight is 20/20. No one saw a pandemic coming that cut into our abilities to re-sign Toffoli and or Tanev. But at that point we were already competing for playoffs. How was anyone to know that the moment they signed Beagle and Roussel and the remainder of LE’s contract would bite us in the ass the day the keys were handed to Pettersson, then Hughes and Miller. In 2 off-seasons after the twins retired we were already competing for playoffs. Then a world wide pandemic crushed the 4-8mil cap increase that was announced leaving us severely handcuffed. It was more of unfortunate timing than carelessness.

The current regime is also benefitting from the contracts given to Petey, Hughes, Demko and Millers cap last season. They have far more room to work with than most clubs with that kind of talent. This regime chose to buy out OEL rather than consider retention on anyone.

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Benning shot himself and the club completely by not letting all that cap slide, and instead going after the late great but no longer that great OEL.   By far the worst thing he did, LE signing looks like signing Schenn compared to that.    

OELs defensive numbers were elite 2021-22. His utilization was defensively not offensively. 
2022-23 - played through injury

2023-24 - his production alongside his defensive numbers make this buyout look bad.

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

In the end, JB wasn't the finisher we needed.    Sure wouldn't want him right now.     Big difference between the Nonis firing, and JB's.  

 I have no quarrels about that either. He came here to build, which he did so successfully. He was given a brief opportunity to see what his team could do and was let go. Thats fine, this new management team has my support and I hope that they can continue to build on this team and keep extending our window year after year.

[The Lock]

14 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Honestly, Go look at my posts and replies. Show me where I blamed Gillis for what he did. Look here and go back and look at the old forums if you want to call me out. I have given Gillis credit, I never blamed him for going all in, but I unlike the rest of these trolls understand what the cost of going all in meant. Which was a MAJOR set back to the next guy who took over.

We are reluctant this only took 5 years to find all the major core pieces. What had Edmonton accomplished with all their top picks the last 15 years? NJD 11 straight missed playoff appearances…. Arizona, Buffalo, Columbus, Florida, Colorado…. There has been soo much more pain and suffering the last 15-20 years that took a lot of these teams to reach contender status than it has taken us to turn heads. The 2021-22 season was a huge indicator as to what this team is truly made of.

I have supported every single GM i havent talked shit about any one of them unprovoked. If people want to hone in on one guy for previous management’s failures for nearly a decade, I will gladly remind them and light a fire under their ass.

 

 

So basically you're saying that Gillis was a bad GM but also did good things because of his situation having to go all in, so he did. Again, you seem adamant on that not being a good thing against Benning yet you're doing it still against Gillis.

 

You also seem adamant on calling anyone with an opinion different than you a troll. Namecalling in a debate generally happens when things are not going someone's way. That's kind of what you're showing here.

[The Lock]

9 hours ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

1) yes, you very much do think that.

 

Your entire argument is rooted in the idea we all have complete free will to do whatever we want whenever we want in everything we do. Internal or external barriers don't exist.

 

And I don't need to put words in your mouth. You're doing that all on your own quite well. I'm just cutting to the chase.

 

2) Yes, we do actually know.  That's why we got what we got in the first place.

 

The organization wanted to ice a "competitive" product. And that was happening regardless who was at the helm. Yes, they'd still be hiring free agents with what was available, and likely paying too much for too long to convince players to come to a losing rebuilder. They had holes in roster and wanted bonafide nhlers to fill them.

 

So... what exactly is it do you think this other miracle GM would be able to do? The vast majority of the moves they made were borne of the initial plan laid at their feet. And there was no changing that.

 

And I love that you point the finger, make claims of "ignorance and madness" and "Benning love" while completely failing to understand what's being said to begin with.

 

Wear a helmet kid.

 

 

 

I don't see the point in debating with you because you're clearly not here to listen to arguments as you've displayed in your interpretation of my arguments. You're just here to have a tantrum, at least that's what you're showing. If we can have a civil discussion, then I can continue. Until then, stop making crap up about "what I'm thinking' and putting words in my  mouth. Until you do that, you're not worth my time of day.

Edited November 23, 2023 by The Lock

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Yes hindsight is 20/20. No one saw a pandemic coming that cut into our abilities to re-sign Toffoli and or Tanev. But at that point we were already competing for playoffs. How was anyone to know that the moment they signed Beagle and Roussel and the remainder of LE’s contract would bite us in the ass the day the keys were handed to Pettersson, then Hughes and Miller. In 2 off-seasons after the twins retired we were already competing for playoffs. Then a world wide pandemic crushed the 4-8mil cap increase that was announced leaving us severely handcuffed. It was more of unfortunate timing than carelessness.

The current regime is also benefitting from the contracts given to Petey, Hughes, Demko and Millers cap last season. They have far more room to work with than most clubs with that kind of talent. This regime chose to buy out OEL rather than consider retention on anyone.

 

OELs defensive numbers were elite 2021-22. His utilization was defensively not offensively. 
2022-23 - played through injury

2023-24 - his production alongside his defensive numbers make this buyout look bad.

 

 I have no quarrels about that either. He came here to build, which he did so successfully. He was given a brief opportunity to see what his team could do and was let go. Thats fine, this new management team has my support and I hope that they can continue to build on this team and keep extending our window year after year.

Elite is a bit of an overstatement, he was fine for his cap hit the first year.   Hronek is Elite.   OEL/Myers was a decent pairing, as in decent around 12th overall 5 x 5.   What you should expect for that amount of money.   And well, a first and stuff.   I didn't think JB could do it, but if you think we won that trade.   Yikes.    JB was an average GM.   If average is the goal, then we should have kept him. 

[SV.]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Yes hindsight is 20/20. No one saw a pandemic coming that cut into our abilities to re-sign Toffoli and or Tanev. But at that point we were already competing for playoffs. How was anyone to know that the moment they signed Beagle and Roussel and the remainder of LE’s contract would bite us in the ass the day the keys were handed to Pettersson, then Hughes and Miller. In 2 off-seasons after the twins retired we were already competing for playoffs. Then a world wide pandemic crushed the 4-8mil cap increase that was announced leaving us severely handcuffed. It was more of unfortunate timing than carelessness.

The current regime is also benefitting from the contracts given to Petey, Hughes, Demko and Millers cap last season. They have far more room to work with than most clubs with that kind of talent. This regime chose to buy out OEL rather than consider retention on anyone.

 

OELs defensive numbers were elite 2021-22. His utilization was defensively not offensively. 
2022-23 - played through injury

2023-24 - his production alongside his defensive numbers make this buyout look bad.

 

 I have no quarrels about that either. He came here to build, which he did so successfully. He was given a brief opportunity to see what his team could do and was let go. Thats fine, this new management team has my support and I hope that they can continue to build on this team and keep extending our window year after year.

You're correct about the unpredictability of the pandemic, but absolutely wrong about the ensuing events.

Canucks were chasing OEL via trade, didn't bother getting back to Tanev in a reasonable time frame (confirmed by Tanev in the last week), so he left.  Couldn't get OEL, either, so they pivoted to Schmidt.  

Canucks chose to commit money to Virtanen over Toffoli.  Been known since the day it happened.

Many people knew that Beagle and Roussel's contracts would age badly.  Doesn't matter if the team went "ahead" of schedule or not, anybody with an ounce of critical thinking knows that you're playing a dangerous game when you commit too much term and too much money to the wrong players.  Even if they were banking on a cap increase, it's not as though they were the only team impacted by a flat cap.  30 other teams (at the time) also had to deal with it.  Are you meaning to tell me that nobody else had to maneuver through it and suddenly shift their plans?

He came here to build, and he did to some extent, but to suggest he did so successfully is to ignore everything else about his tenure and simply only view some of what he did at the draft.  After all, it was successful as you suggest it was, he'd probably still be here, no?