Francesco Aquillini and Jim Benning --Tales of a Rebuild: Misconceptions, Misery, and Money

[NewbieCanuckFan]

27 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Elite is a bit of an overstatement, he was fine for his cap hit the first year.   Hronek is Elite.   OEL/Myers was a decent pairing, as in decent around 12th overall 5 x 5.   What you should expect for that amount of money.   And well, a first and stuff.   I didn't think JB could do it, but if you think we won that trade.   Yikes.    JB was an average GM.   If average is the goal, then we should have kept him. 

If that meant the likes of Willie D or Travis Green types as head coaches, no thanks.  Hronek was a great trade (made possible because of the assets from a player drafted by Gillis lol).  

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Just now, SV. said:

You're correct about the unpredictability of the pandemic, but absolutely wrong about the ensuing events.

Canucks were chasing OEL via trade, didn't bother getting back to Tanev in a reasonable time frame (confirmed by Tanev in the last week), so he left.  Couldn't get OEL, either, so they pivoted to Schmidt.  

Canucks chose to commit money to Virtanen over Toffoli.  Been known since the day it happened.

Many people knew that Beagle and Roussel's contracts would age badly.  Doesn't matter if the team went "ahead" of schedule or not, anybody with an ounce of critical thinking knows that you're playing a dangerous game when you commit too much term and too much money to the wrong players.  Even if they were banking on a cap increase, it's not as though they were the only team impacted by a flat cap.  30 other teams (at the time) also had to deal with it.  Are you meaning to tell me that nobody else had to maneuver through it and suddenly shift their plans?

He came here to build, and he did to some extent, but to suggest he did so successfully is to ignore everything else about his tenure and simply only view some of what he did at the draft.  After all, it was successful as you suggest it was, he'd probably still be here, no?

Beagle was a stupid acquisition in that who gives a NTC to a 4th line forward (center or not)?  And people b*tched about Gillis handing out NTCs like candy.  Got no cap savings on him either really (considering again, he's a 4th line forward).  Roussell's contract only aged badly because of injuries.  I don't think he had the same injury history as say a guy like Ferland (oh boy, another whopper by Benning; if insurance companies wouldn't cover him, that should tell you that he's a HUGE risk).  Roussell, imho, played well above his pay grade before injuries kicked in.

[IBatch]

13 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

If that meant the likes of Willie D or Travis Green types as head coaches, no thanks.  Hronek was a great trade (made possible because of the assets from a player drafted by Gillis lol).  

Lol.  That was Corey Schneider he traded at the time, a goalie thing he let fester, and at the time considered a top five goalie.    MG draft record was awful, including Horvat.   And if you're one of those people that think Scotty Bowman could have done much better with that lineup ... the same lineup you're complaining about above ... wow.   I'm still baffled why people think coaching had much of anything to do with that phase.  

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

57 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

So basically you're saying that Gillis was a bad GM but also did good things because of his situation having to go all in, so he did. Again, you seem adamant on that not being a good thing against Benning yet you're doing it still against Gillis.

 

You also seem adamant on calling anyone with an opinion different than you a troll. Namecalling in a debate generally happens when things are not going someone's way. That's kind of what you're showing here.

Hey try this for once, back your opinion up. Bring forth actual statistics, research and valid sources. Until then opinions are like assholes, everyone’s got one. Trolls make statements without actual substance to support it. You say Benning sucks because we didnt make playoffs, I say we were rebuilding, I put emphasis on development being crucial and it takes time. Shit doesnt happen over night. You complain about a barren prospect pool, I point at an NHL team stacked with talent. What do you want, The San jose sharks situation where they have nothing in the NHL or in the minors? Or do you want a minor league team with prospects and no NHL team? Or… a young, star studded NHL team that gives us years of time to draft and build our cupboards up and develop players? 
 

Bring some actual research, do comparisons show JBs tenure vs previous rebuilds, ongoing rebuilds, bring something of actual facts and proof. 
 

 

PS how hard was Gillis’s job to go all in? He was not a good GM. He made a few trades that helped, he got Hamhuis who was a freebie and wanted to play here and openly stated that.. then in 2011-12 he didnt do anything to improve us at the TDL we got fuckin smoked by LAK, he proceeded to make shittier trades that hurt us more and more, had no prospects coming up, failed to develop anyone and in 4 years we went from presidents trophy+SCF to presidents trophy+1st round shit kicking to another 1st round shit kicking to 23rd in the league. The window closed on the twins and that was it. Literally that teams hopes were held together by Burkes drafting from start to finish and a bit of Nonis work too, but largely Burkes work. 

[AnthonyG]

47 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Elite is a bit of an overstatement, he was fine for his cap hit the first year.   Hronek is Elite.   OEL/Myers was a decent pairing, as in decent around 12th overall 5 x 5.   What you should expect for that amount of money.   And well, a first and stuff.   I didn't think JB could do it, but if you think we won that trade.   Yikes.    JB was an average GM.   If average is the goal, then we should have kept him. 

Decent pairing? OEL and Myers were top 5 league wide as a shutdown pair

Edited November 23, 2023 by AnthonyG

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

Hey try this for once, back your opinion up. Bring forth actual statistics, research and valid sources. Until then opinions are like assholes, everyone’s got one. Trolls make statements without actual substance to support it. You say Benning sucks because we didnt make playoffs, I say we were rebuilding, I put emphasis on development being crucial and it takes time. Shit doesnt happen over night. You complain about a barren prospect pool, I point at an NHL team stacked with talent. What do you want, The San jose sharks situation where they have nothing in the NHL or in the minors? Or do you want a minor league team with prospects and no NHL team? Or… a young, star studded NHL team that gives us years of time to draft and build our cupboards up and develop players? 
 

Bring some actual research, do comparisons show JBs tenure vs previous rebuilds, ongoing rebuilds, bring something of actual facts and proof. 
 

 

PS how hard was Gillis’s job to go all in? He was not a good GM. He made a few trades that helped, he got Hamhuis who was a freebie and wanted to play here and openly stated that.. then in 2011-12 he didnt do anything to improve us at the TDL we got fuckin smoked by LAK, he proceeded to make shittier trades that hurt us more and more, had no prospects coming up, failed to develop anyone and in 4 years we went from presidents trophy+SCF to presidents trophy+1st round shit kicking to another 1st round shit kicking to 23rd in the league. The window closed on the twins and that was it. Literally that teams hopes were held together by Burkes drafting from start to finish and a bit of Nonis work too, but largely Burkes work. 

 

Quote me on where I said "Benning sucks because we didn't make the playoffs". Go find that right now.

[AnthonyG]

Just now, The Lock said:

 

Quote me on where I said "Benning sucks because we didn't make the playoffs". Go find that right now.

Buddy Im making a point as to what makes a troll.

The argument from the troll side is “benning sucks” no reason, no facts, no research, no comparisons nothing.

[The Lock]

9 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Buddy Im making a point as to what makes a troll.

The argument from the troll side is “benning sucks” no reason, no facts, no research, no comparisons nothing.

 

So anyone against your opinion is a troll?

 

For the record, I have nothing against anyone liking Benning. I have nothing against anyone hating Benning. Calling people trolls is just immaturity in my opinion.

 

If you want to win a debate, bring up facts and logic, but respect the other side. No respect for the other side just means you'll never convince anyone. Calling people trolls will never win you a debate.

Edited November 23, 2023 by The Lock

[NewbieCanuckFan]

26 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Lol.  That was Corey Schneider he traded at the time, a goalie thing he let fester, and at the time considered a top five goalie.    MG draft record was awful, including Horvat.   And if you're one of those people that think Scotty Bowman could have done much better with that lineup ... the same lineup you're complaining about above ... wow.   I'm still baffled why people think coaching had much of anything to do with that phase.  

Look at the type of player JT Miller was then compared to now.  At both times, both putting up allstar type points but now a complete player.  That's just one example.  Meh, on Schneider.  How about letting a guy that actually was the finalist for the Vezina that Benning let walk for *NOTHING*?  Horvat was a bad draft selection?  Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Both GM's deserved to be fired.  And the organization is better off now with the current management crew.

Edited November 23, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Decent pairing? OEL and Myers were top 5 league wide as a shutdown pair

So...what you're saying is Gudbranson and Zadorov were better?   Come on man.    They weren't Elite.   That's ridiculous.    Some of this is compared to teammates.   Not the rest of the league. 

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Look at the type of player JT Miller was then compared to now.  At both times, both putting up allstar type points but now a complete player.  That's just one example.  Meh, on Schneider.  How about letting a guy that actually was the finalist for the Vezina that Benning let walk for *NOTHING*?  Horvat was a bad draft selection?  Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Both GM's deserved to be fired.  And the organization is better off now with the current management crew.

Dude.  Didn't say Horvat was a bad pick, he was a great pick.  Said even with that pick, the Gillis era was bad at drafting.  And you can't even say "well he traded all his firsts" - which for sure he could have, Holland for example was famous for that... Anyways I don't think Gillis was a bad GM.    But it's beyond debate, that he had a much much sweeter gig then JB did too.    JB was ok.  Not good not great just ok.   Sure glad he's not the current GM.   As for Allvin not sure yet.    But he's also getting JBs leftovers. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

23 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

So anyone against your opinion is a troll?

 

For the record, I have nothing against anyone liking Benning. I have nothing against anyone hating Benning. Calling people trolls is just immaturity in my opinion.

 

If you want to win a debate, bring up facts and logic, but respect the other side. No respect for the other side just means you'll never convince anyone. Calling people trolls will never win you a debate.

No dude I dont have any issues of differing opinions, its how its presented that I have an issue. Put forth effort, give something other than “benning sucks”. Go into detail, break down the failures and also be mindful of the situation he was put into.

owners want revenue, fans want playoffs, full rebuild is 1) not acceptable and 2) we dont have the trade chips to do so anyhow. Empty cupboards need to replace the entire core. COVIDs impact…

For example @IBatch said Benning was notorious for spending to the cap. That I agreed with, but my counter to that was well, a pandemic froze the cap which was announced to rise 4-8mil in 2020. Was that reckless spending or was that just unfortunate luck that played a major part in having to take a slight step back? Can you really blame a GM for unforeseeable circumstances? There has to be an understanding of the situations, it cant be just “benning sucked” he went through more bullshit than ANY GM in history while trying to rebuild.

cap recapture 

2 expansion drafts

pandemic

flat cap

no trade chips to accelerate a rebuild

no prospects

that shit takes more than 7 years to fix or navigate. We are fucking fortunate this took as long as it did. Edmonton thought they finished their rebuild and look at them. Barely a .500 playoff team with McWhiner

[nzan]

13 minutes ago, IBatch said:

JB was ok.  Not good not great just ok.   Sure glad he's not the current GM.   As for Allvin not sure yet.    But he's also getting JBs leftovers. 

 

I can maybe come around to agree with this. It's pretty easy to look at the bed-shats; I hated the Eriksson signing before he scored on his own net. On the other hand he did knock it out of the park a few times.

 

As for Allvin, so far I haven't seen any clearly bad moves. Maybe he's an outlier/unicorn and won't make any horrible mistakes? Here's hoping.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

17 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Dude.  Didn't say Horvat was a bad pick, he was a great pick.  Said even with that pick, the Gillis era was bad at drafting.  And you can't even say "well he traded all his firsts" - which for sure he could have, Holland for example was famous for that... Anyways I don't think Gillis was a bad GM.    But it's beyond debate, that he had a much much sweeter gig then JB did too.    JB was ok.  Not good not great just ok.   Sure glad he's not the current GM.   As for Allvin not sure yet.    But he's also getting JBs leftovers. 

I will say Benning never had the luxury of two free buyouts that Gillis had. Imagine the team without Myers & OEL cap hit for example.

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, nzan said:

 

I can maybe come around to agree with this. It's pretty easy to look at the bed-shats; I hated the Eriksson signing before he scored on his own net. On the other hand he did knock it out of the park a few times.

 

As for Allvin, so far I haven't seen any clearly bad moves. Maybe he's an outlier/unicorn and won't make any horrible mistakes? Here's hoping.

At the start, JB didn't either.  Vrbata and if he didn't manage to snap up Ryan Miller, the team would have been done for.  Vrbata was the second best UFA forward back then, Iginla, their target went to well, you know.   LE was  later.   

 

So far.  Allvin is closing in on the two year mark.   Two years into JB, things seemed decent too.  Hindsight is always 50/50.  But I bet we still had quite a few fans who didn't want a rebuild (yet).  

 

Just want a GM who will act rather than re-act.  JB was a master reactor.   All over the place. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Just now, nzan said:

 

 

 

As for Allvin, so far I haven't seen any clearly bad moves. Maybe he's an outlier/unicorn and won't make any horrible mistakes? Here's hoping.

Napoleon was thought to have said (when a subordinate was talking about another General) "but is he lucky?"

[SV.]

5 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I will say Benning never had the luxury of two free buyouts that Gillis had. Imagine the team without Myers & OEL cap hit for example.

The Canucks have moved to jettison winger David Booth.
Booth’s agent, Mike Liut, said Canucks GM Jim Benning called late Monday night to inform him that the NHL club would be using a compliance buyout to remove Booth’s expensive contract from their books.

[AnthonyG]

29 minutes ago, IBatch said:

So...what you're saying is Gudbranson and Zadorov were better?   Come on man.    They weren't Elite.   That's ridiculous.    Some of this is compared to teammates.   Not the rest of the league. 

This is all dpairs league wide who played over 900 mins 2021-22. That doesnt mean Zadorov and Gudbranson were utilized the same. OEL and Myers were utilized as a shutdown pair and the numbers are there to back it up.

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, SV. said:

The Canucks have moved to jettison winger David Booth.
Booth’s agent, Mike Liut, said Canucks GM Jim Benning called late Monday night to inform him that the NHL club would be using a compliance buyout to remove Booth’s expensive contract from their books.

Yep and MG did the same with his other mistake Ballard.   Too bad, all that cap savings (and Booth's cap hit wasn't terrible, just concussed and done, Ballard's would be like buying out Myers or OEL).  

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

This is all dpairs league wide who played over 900 mins 2021-22. That doesnt mean Zadorov and Gudbranson were utilized the same. OEL and Myers were utilized as a shutdown pair and the numbers are there to back it up.

They weren't elite.  Sorry.  They for sure should have been for their combined cap hit though.   QHs Hronek is elite.  And for 2 million less.   I also defended the pairing, but never called them elite.   A solid - decent- good pairing.   Look at both of them since then too.   Ugly.   OEL is doing very well on a contender.   Edler looked great too in LA when Doughty went down - at 35 years old for peanuts.    OEL was a really, really bad move.  JBs worst one.   At least that's how I see it.   One year of decent or good or even elite (which I'm not going to debate, they were solid that's it, and only 5 x 5 their PK work wasn't good) 

isn't worth the trade.   It's already been talked about as one of the worst trades in Canucks history, and the Neely trade at least gave us Pederson.   

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

@IBatchjust so you are aware 

Zadorov and Gubranson had 88 dzone starts at 5v5 all season 2021-22

OEL and Myers had literally almost double with 188dzone starts. That is the difference in utilization and that was 3rd most league wide and only 35GA 1/4 of which were low danger goals. That is elite.

[SV.]

13 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

No dude I dont have any issues of differing opinions, its how its presented that I have an issue. Put forth effort, give something other than “benning sucks”. Go into detail, break down the failures and also be mindful of the situation he was put into.

owners want revenue, fans want playoffs, full rebuild is 1) not acceptable and 2) we dont have the trade chips to do so anyhow. Empty cupboards need to replace the entire core. COVIDs impact…

For example @IBatch said Benning was notorious for spending to the cap. That I agreed with, but my counter to that was well, a pandemic froze the cap which was announced to rise 4-8mil in 2020. Was that reckless spending or was that just unfortunate luck that played a major part in having to take a slight step back? Can you really blame a GM for unforeseeable circumstances? There has to be an understanding of the situations, it cant be just “benning sucked” he went through more bullshit than ANY GM in history while trying to rebuild.

cap recapture 

2 expansion drafts

pandemic

flat cap

no trade chips to accelerate a rebuild

no prospects

that shit takes more than 7 years to fix or navigate. We are fucking fortunate this took as long as it did. Edmonton thought they finished their rebuild and look at them. Barely a .500 playoff team with McWhiner

The issue is that you tend to come across as very hyperbolic and revisionist in discussing every other regime, namely the Gillis one, and then choosing to be meticulous and excusive when analyzing Benning.  Not to mention, extremely dismissive of virtually everything you don't agree with, even if what's being said is based on fact and history (without so far as directly integrating such facts and history).  Case and point, if somebody is saying that Benning wasted assets, for example, they're most likely referring to the amount of times he moved picks for marginal young players or players that didn't move the needle.  That level of specificity isn't really needed as it should be obvious enough to anybody that's been following the team.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yep and MG did the same with his other mistake Ballard.   Too bad, all that cap savings (and Booth's cap hit wasn't terrible, just concussed and done, Ballard's would be like buying out Myers or OEL).  

Gillis waited too long to buy him out and it cost the team.  Was pretty obvious at the start he wouldn't fit in with AVs style.  Bad pro scouting there as you have to consider how well a given player will fit in with not just the team but the coach.  Likely a motivating reason Alvin bought out OEL (given the players effectiveness under Tocchet in Arizona)

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Gillis waited too long to buy him out and it cost the team.  Was pretty obvious at the start he wouldn't fit in with AVs style.  Bad pro scouting there as you have to consider how well a given player will fit in with not just the team but the coach.  Likely a motivating reason Alvin bought out OEL (given the players effectiveness under Tocchet in Arizona)

Actually liked the moves at the time.  Kesler needed a wingman and Ballard was a 40 or so point young D-man who could hip check the heck out of the opposition.   Even then the hip check was going by the way side.  Not at all what I expected to happen.   It's also why these guys got bought out.   For Booth it was concussions, for Ballard we just didn't need him.   And for a 7th D, in todays money around 6.6 million it's truly too bad. 

 

Edit:  As far as OEL goes.  I also thought it was strange because Tochett for sure pushed him in ARI.    As soon as he became our coach,  he was out. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

22 minutes ago, IBatch said:

They weren't elite.  Sorry.  They for sure should have been for their combined cap hit though.   QHs Hronek is elite.  And for 2 million less.   I also defended the pairing, but never called them elite.   A solid - decent- good pairing.   Look at both of them since then too.   Ugly.   OEL is doing very well on a contender.   Edler looked great too in LA when Doughty went down - at 35 years old for peanuts.    OEL was a really, really bad move.  JBs worst one.   At least that's how I see it.   One year of decent or good or even elite (which I'm not going to debate, they were solid that's it, and only 5 x 5 their PK work wasn't good) 

isn't worth the trade.   It's already been talked about as one of the worst trades in Canucks history, and the Neely trade at least gave us Pederson.   

A solid good decent pairing doesnt shut down the McDavids, Draisaitls, Mackinnons and Kucherovs of the league AND have a very low goals against while doing so. That is in fact what made them an elite shutdown pair. On their own? No not elite, but together they absolutely were.

 

also for context

QH and Hronek have a league leading (by a fair margin) offensive zone start  with 70.13% of their shifts starting in the ozone. Yet they are 6th in most HDGA, 6th in worst xGA, 6th worst in goals against….. with 70.13oZS% at 5v5. Read between the lines. What does that tell you?

 

Also for PK matters, the forwards are a  big player in that regard preventing 1timers and shots from the point/top of the circle. Goaltending is also supposed to be your best PKer. 
 

Imo the jury is still out on the OEL trade. Guenther is still in the minors. OEL made a positive impact on our back end, Garland has been effective every game in some way shape or form.

We have yet to see what Guenther becomes. There are no guarantees and to already chalk this one up as the worst trade is ridiculous. Cam Neely was already in the NHL when that trade went down.