Francesco Aquillini and Jim Benning --Tales of a Rebuild: Misconceptions, Misery, and Money

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

A solid good decent pairing doesnt shut down the McDavids, Draisaitls, Mackinnons and Kucherovs of the league AND have a very low goals against while doing so. That is in fact what made them an elite shutdown pair. On their own? No not elite, but together they absolutely were.

 

also for context

QH and Hronek have a league leading (by a fair margin) offensive zone start  with 70.13% of their shifts starting in the ozone. Yet they are 6th in most HDGA, 6th in worst xGA, 6th worst in goals against….. with 70.13oZS% at 5v5. Read between the lines. What does that tell you?

 

Also for PK matters, the forwards are a  big player in that regard preventing 1timers and shots from the point/top of the circle. Goaltending is also supposed to be your best PKer. 
 

Imo the jury is still out on the OEL trade. Guenther is still in the minors. OEL made a positive impact on our back end, Garland has been effective every game in some way shape or form.

We have yet to see what Guenther becomes. There are no guarantees and to already chalk this one up as the worst trade is ridiculous. Cam Neely was already in the NHL when that trade went down.

I'd rather they just didn't bother for another year.  I didn't think it was possible to shed that much cap hit.    All at once.    That was the coolest part of the trade for sure given the recent costs.     Timing was off though.   We still didn't make the playoffs did we?    That's the tactical error.   And well his obsession also cost us Tanev.   

[NewbieCanuckFan]

40 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Actually liked the moves at the time.  Kesler needed a wingman and Ballard was a 40 or so point young D-man who could hip check the heck out of the opposition.   Even then the hip check was going by the way side.  Not at all what I expected to happen.   It's also why these guys got bought out.   For Booth it was concussions, for Ballard we just didn't need him.   And for a 7th D, in todays money around 6.6 million it's truly too bad. 

 

Edit:  As far as OEL goes.  I also thought it was strange because Tochett for sure pushed him in ARI.    As soon as he became our coach,  he was out. 

Personally, I think it was that knee-on-knee that AVs player (forgot his name) gave on Booth that derailed his time here.  Never seemed the same after that (well, as far as weird people go heh)

[nzan]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

At the start, JB didn't either.  Vrbata and if he didn't manage to snap up Ryan Miller, the team would have been done for.  Vrbata was the second best UFA forward back then, Iginla, their target went to well, you know.   LE was  later.   

 

So far.  Allvin is closing in on the two year mark.   Two years into JB, things seemed decent too.  Hindsight is always 50/50.  But I bet we still had quite a few fans who didn't want a rebuild (yet).  

 

Just want a GM who will act rather than re-act.  JB was a master reactor.   All over the place. 

 

Agreed.

Throughout his tenure I thought Benning was mostly great, except I always felt like he was shooting from the hip.

Hindsight is more often 20/20 than 50/50 - and hindsight looks worse than it did at the time.

Still, he was mostly ok-good besides a few big blunders.

 

[Canucklehead44]

On 11/15/2023 at 8:49 AM, King Heffy said:

Gillis caused a ton of damage to the franchise with his drafting and trades.  The destruction that idiot did took a damage to recover from thanks to his historic incompetence.

yea missing out on Quinton Howden was so much worse than missing out on two 40 goal scorers in McCann and Debrincat for Gudbranson, or traded a top 10 pick, 2nd rounder and 7th for 19 million in dead cap and a 3rd line forward costing us $5M per year. Sam Gagner, Ferland, Jay Beagle, Loui Eriksson, Tyler Myers sure provided great value on the dollar!

Every bad move of Keenan, Burke, Nonis, Gillis & Allvin combined doesn't even account for near the damage Benning did. 

He gets so much credit for drafting Petterson when in fact he was adamantly against it. Or how we were going to draft Larkin and instead we got Virtanen. Juolevi over Tkachuk. His drafting was absolute garbage he just got lucky with Hughes falling on his lap and the genius of Judd Brackett. Post Brackett and Dim Jim didn't produce a single NHL calibre prospect over two drafts. Not a single skater properly developed in the AHL over Benning's reign. 

I am so glad he is gone - Allvin is doing a fantastic job in comparison it is like night and day. Drafting is far improved, he has done exceptionally well signing free agent prospects, we actually have guys developing in the minors for once and he was able to sign/trade for quality players at a low price. The difference between them is insane. 

[AnthonyG]

26 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I'd rather they just didn't bother for another year.  I didn't think it was possible to shed that much cap hit.    All at once.    That was the coolest part of the trade for sure given the recent costs.     Timing was off though.   We still didn't make the playoffs did we?    That's the tactical error.   And well his obsession also cost us Tanev.   

Yes its unfortunate we failed to make playoffs… we missed by 6 points… after being 28th place on Dec 5th.

From Dec 5th to the end of the season we were T-10th in points. What changed? Pettersson started scoring.

the first 40 games of the 2021-22 season, Pettersson was pointless in 24 of them. That’s unacceptable. Top PP unit, out there with the net empty, favourable offensive zone starts, top line, given every opportunity to score and he failed miserably…. Until game 41…. He caught fire and played to the level the rest of the team was and we went from 28th to 18th. Thats an insane turn around, had Petey got going a week prior, we would slid into playoffs and thats without any roster changes. We missed playoffs but it wasnt because of OEL, or Myers or Pearson or Garland or whichever player everyone loves to bash… we missed because Pettersson was a huge letdown for far too long

[Canucklehead44]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

Yes its unfortunate we failed to make playoffs… we missed by 6 points… after being 28th place on Dec 5th.

From Dec 5th to the end of the season we were T-10th in points. What changed? Pettersson started scoring.

the first 40 games of the 2021-22 season, Pettersson was pointless in 24 of them. That’s unacceptable. Top PP unit, out there with the net empty, favourable offensive zone starts, top line, given every opportunity to score and he failed miserably…. Until game 41…. He caught fire and played to the level the rest of the team was and we went from 28th to 18th. Thats an insane turn around, had Petey got going a week prior, we would slid into playoffs and thats without any roster changes. We missed playoffs but it wasnt because of OEL, or Myers or Pearson or Garland or whichever player everyone loves to bash… we missed because Pettersson was a huge letdown for far too long

Yea because the $21 million those players got paid to produce 19 goals, injuries, and for the most part poor defensive play isn't a big deal. What a bizarre take. 

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Yes its unfortunate we failed to make playoffs… we missed by 6 points… after being 28th place on Dec 5th.

From Dec 5th to the end of the season we were T-10th in points. What changed? Pettersson started scoring.

the first 40 games of the 2021-22 season, Pettersson was pointless in 24 of them. That’s unacceptable. Top PP unit, out there with the net empty, favourable offensive zone starts, top line, given every opportunity to score and he failed miserably…. Until game 41…. He caught fire and played to the level the rest of the team was and we went from 28th to 18th. Thats an insane turn around, had Petey got going a week prior, we would slid into playoffs and thats without any roster changes. We missed playoffs but it wasnt because of OEL, or Myers or Pearson or Garland or whichever player everyone loves to bash… we missed because Pettersson was a huge letdown for far too long

And Petterson was struggling due to Green destroying his confidence.  Benning's biggest blunder was hiring two coaches who were both clearly unfit to work at the NHL level in any capacity.

[AnthonyG]

Just now, Canucklehead44 said:

Yea because the $21 million those players got paid to produce 19 goals, injuries, and for the most part poor defensive play isn't a big deal. What a bizarre take. 

Yep 24 games being held pointless is acceptable as a 1C with every offensive opportunity being gifted to him and doing sweet fuck all for nearly half a season.

 

lets blame the guys whos defensive stats were top 5 best in the league lol and a goalie who had vezina votes. El oh el.

 

 

[AnthonyG]

Just now, King Heffy said:

And Petterson was struggling due to Green destroying his confidence.  Benning's biggest blunder was hiring two coaches who were both clearly unfit to work at the NHL level in any capacity.

No Pettersson struggled because he showed up to camp last minute.

 

Last year he was early. Look at the difference 

[Canucklehead44]

2 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Yep 24 games being held pointless is acceptable as a 1C with every offensive opportunity being gifted to him and doing sweet fuck all for nearly half a season.

 

lets blame the guys whos defensive stats were top 5 best in the league lol and a goalie who had vezina votes. El oh el.

 

 

I am not sure if you are actually serious or joking/trolling to be funny? Do you think Shaq is short? Not arguing with EP struggling but we had enormous money on guys who seriously underperformed who deserve a lot of heat

Edited November 23, 2023 by Canucklehead44

[Gurn]

2 hours ago, The Lock said:

 

So anyone against your opinion is a troll?

 

 

I think that was a reference to the people that have called him a troll, in this thread, or made comments about his intelligence.

While some name calling, and derision has crept into his posts, he is not the only poster slinging a bit of mud.

given that he, and one other poster, are basically being dogpiled- I'm not surprised at a counter reaction.

[kilgore]

15 minutes ago, Gurn said:

I think that was a reference to the people that have called him a troll, in this thread, or made comments about his intelligence.

While some name calling, and derision has crept into his posts, he is not the only poster slinging a bit of mud.

given that he, and one other poster, are basically being dogpiled- I'm not surprised at a counter reaction.

 

Yeah well, if two flat-earthers waded into an Earth scientist conference, and then kept doubling down after being presented with logic and historical facts, what would you expect?

[Gurn]

8 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

Yeah well, if two flat-earthers waded into an Earth scientist conference, and then kept doubling down after being presented with logic and historical facts, what would you expect?

And yet another dig at someone's intelligence.

Well done, thanks for proving my point.

 

[Alflives]

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Hey try this for once, back your opinion up. Bring forth actual statistics, research and valid sources. Until then opinions are like assholes, everyone’s got one. Trolls make statements without actual substance to support it. You say Benning sucks because we didnt make playoffs, I say we were rebuilding, I put emphasis on development being crucial and it takes time. Shit doesnt happen over night. You complain about a barren prospect pool, I point at an NHL team stacked with talent. What do you want, The San jose sharks situation where they have nothing in the NHL or in the minors? Or do you want a minor league team with prospects and no NHL team? Or… a young, star studded NHL team that gives us years of time to draft and build our cupboards up and develop players? 
 

Bring some actual research, do comparisons show JBs tenure vs previous rebuilds, ongoing rebuilds, bring something of actual facts and proof. 
 

 

PS how hard was Gillis’s job to go all in? He was not a good GM. He made a few trades that helped, he got Hamhuis who was a freebie and wanted to play here and openly stated that.. then in 2011-12 he didnt do anything to improve us at the TDL we got fuckin smoked by LAK, he proceeded to make shittier trades that hurt us more and more, had no prospects coming up, failed to develop anyone and in 4 years we went from presidents trophy+SCF to presidents trophy+1st round shit kicking to another 1st round shit kicking to 23rd in the league. The window closed on the twins and that was it. Literally that teams hopes were held together by Burkes drafting from start to finish and a bit of Nonis work too, but largely Burkes work. 

Keenan's and Quins work if we really want to get down to the nitty gritty.  That Linden trade went on for a couple decades.   And as far as GMs go, JB is on the floor, and Quin is in the clouds in comparison.    Burke was pretty good too.  Learned from the best.   But even he didn't want to draft Bure "that's a small body" despite being Quins right hand man and asked to see if he was draftable.   Did the leg work, he was, and still advised not too lol.   So Burkie wasn't perfect either.    Quins trades are what I grew up with as a young adult.   Benning managed one in 8 years, Miller, that comes close to some of Quins better trades. 

 

As far as Gillis goes, he was the right man at the right time too.   Made a pro org for the club.   Was the worst draft record, including context.   Milford did a better job in four years, than anyone really.   

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Keenan's and Quins work if we really want to get down to the nitty gritty.  That Linden trade went on for a couple decades.   And as far as GMs go, JB is on the floor, and Quin is in the clouds in comparison.    Burke was pretty good too.  Learned from the best.   But even he didn't want to draft Bure "that's a small body" despite being Quins right hand man and asked to see if he was draftable.   Did the leg work, he was, and still advised not too lol.   So Burkie wasn't perfect either.    Quins trades are what I grew up with as a young adult.   Benning managed one in 8 years, Miller, that comes close to some of Quins better trades. 

They don't make them like the big Irishman anymore.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

They don't make them like the big Irishman anymore.

And Burkie really either.

[King Heffy]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

And Burkie really either.

True, but he also didn't coach and GM while being the POHO.  Other than Trotz, you don't even see many coaches moving into the GM's office now.  Quinn molded those 90's teams on and off the ice.

[LillStrimma]

56 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

No Pettersson struggled because he showed up to camp last minute.

 

Last year he was early. Look at the difference 

I think you should understand that Petey practise a lot on his own.

It’s a myth that players coming late to the camp struggles unless their name is Virtanen.

You can probably find other decisions influence the struggle as punishments from the coach. So instead of speaking with Petey Green made his life harder because Green is old school and has been breeded by old school coaches that think old school punishments is the best. One of the reasons Cull was a bad fit in Utica.

Green and Cull… Compare them with Colliton and see where the differences are.

 

For fun you can go back and check how Petey was deployed back then. Wich players he played with. How the setup on PP were and so on.

 

The questons I’m asking you to check is due to my lack of knowledge and you can enlight me here. 

[AnthonyG]

57 minutes ago, IBatch said:

As far as Gillis goes, he was the right man at the right time too.   Made a pro org for the club.   Was the worst draft record, including context.   Milford did a better job in four years, than anyone really.   

There is no denying Gillis being the right guy at the right time, I personally believe he did change the way organizations around the league monitor things (sleep doctors, contract structures….fuck you hairy buttman and the cap recapture… etc) I feel he was very much ahead of his time with the things he implemented.

He was also a beneficiary of inheriting a core that could contend which does help with luring free agents.

 

It sadly was literally an all in or nothing approach that very much crippled us. Sitting on the same core for too long along with drafting/development was just too damaging to overcome quickly. He was too afraid to shake it up after getting so close… then too afraid again after another presidents trophy… that was his biggest flaw. Fear of Change.

Edited November 23, 2023 by AnthonyG

[AnthonyG]

33 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

I think you should understand that Petey practise a lot on his own.

It’s a myth that players coming late to the camp struggles unless their name is Virtanen.

You can probably find other decisions influence the struggle as punishments from the coach. So instead of speaking with Petey Green made his life harder because Green is old school and has been breeded by old school coaches that think old school punishments is the best. One of the reasons Cull was a bad fit in Utica.

Green and Cull… Compare them with Colliton and see where the differences are.

 

For fun you can go back and check how Petey was deployed back then. Wich players he played with. How the setup on PP were and so on.

 

The questons I’m asking you to check is due to my lack of knowledge and you can enlight me here. 

Cant have your cake and eat it too. Either Virtanen gets a pass like Petey or they both failed to prepare.

Pettersson even mentioned it himself at one point about the difference between last year and the year prior.

its well known guys who show up late struggle or take a bit longer to get going. Guys who are there early are ready to go.

 

You can educate yourself

[LillStrimma]

3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Cant have your cake and eat it too. Either Virtanen gets a pass like Petey or they both failed to prepare.

Pettersson even mentioned it himself at one point about the difference between last year and the year prior.

its well known guys who show up late struggle or take a bit longer to get going. Guys who are there early are ready to go.

 

You can educate yourself

You are one of few that dive into statistics so it's easy for you.

 

Virtanen party like it was 1999 and Petey train. You can't seriously compare them.

Regarding Petey, it's more a mental issue he has to go through, not a fitness issue.

He sets a high goal for himself and test newer sticks or grade on the skates. Every adjustment Petey makes  leads to time before he regain the same success at NHL level.

One example was when he changed the grade on the skates. Suddenly he started to fall when he was trying to turn quickly.

[AnthonyG]

I dive into the stuff I am talking about. You want to know about Pettersson linemates etc, go on ahead and do some research

[kilgore]

8 hours ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

Which means you've failed to understand what's being said unfortunately.... and an extremely ironic sentiment considering the contentious topic and your overall position on it, tbh.

 

 

There is no "defence." Only an attempt to explore past the usual surface level narratives which you and a few others here seem so vehemently want to defend. You act like I'm attacking your religion here. "The scientific method may lead people to believe there is no god!?? There may be other explanations for a given phenomenon other than god??!! HERETIC!!! DEVIL WORSHIPPER!!"

 

That is exactly how you guys sound.

 

Yes, most of what people say on the matter is scapegoating. I already explained why in the very first post. Go read it again. Or don't. I don't give a fuck.

 

Secondly, continuously thinking in terms of false dichotomies ala 'pro-anti,us-them/black-white' will bring you no where closer to understanding. But then you aren't really trying to understand here, are you.  You're just here to defend your religion. Storming in trying to string me up on the cross labelled as a devil worshipper as we can all see from your above comments.

 

 

 

 

An owner is still at the behest of the marketplace and the demands of the business, big guy. I can tell you've never owned a business or have any concept of how an organization is run. Whether it's a small shop with a dozen employees, or a billion dollar company with 1,001. This underlying relationship to the marketplace, producer/consumer, does not change.  An NHL hockey club is trying to sell a product like any other business. Yes, there is always a fight between the needs of the now and the needs of the future when you're trying to sell a lackluster product and theorizing a future product being sought. But that's the rub.

 

For the idealistic intentional tankers, anything that sacrificed some potential for the future was a bad move. And technically, they would be correct.

 

But when you account for actually existing reality, why tanking for this club was never a realistic scenario due to the plethora of reason I've continuously outlined, you understand why the best path doesn't necessarily mean realistic path. And it's even hard to blame anyone when you look at the dirty details. Life simply ain't like manager mode in CHEL.

 

And stating  "convince the owner otherwise" shows how completely naive and idealistic these claim really are. Even Trevor Linden couldn't convince the organization to take a different path. Yet you expect a GM to be able to change that? No. fuck no. And if he said no they'd tell him to take a hike like they did Linden and replace him with someone else that would do what they wanted. And then you'd be saying the same thing about the next guy.   How long you think you'd last at your job if told you boss a hard no to something he told you to do? Get real.

 

And intentional tanking=building a true contender talk is pure bs.  Lots of ways to rebuild a team. Some ways better than others? May theoretically get you to a destination faster for longer? Potentially. But theres no guarantees. And that doesn't mean you can't be a legit contender just because you didn't rebuild exactly like X, Pure fantasy. Every cup winner has a combination of drafted players, trades, and free agents.  The point of a rebuild is to acquire a core of stars to build around. Some paths just might take longer than others given the variables and conditions therein. ie. a team starting from ground zero will take longer than a team which has assets that will return 1st round picks. And choosing to stay competitive losing assets to keep asses in the seats for the duration is certainly a big determining factor.. perhaps THE biggest one for this past rebuild.

 

 

Nothing to do with reputation. and nothing to do with sabotage. What's being said is that there is a plan in place that was decided by your bosses. Here is what we're doing. Would you like to do the job or not? No? Bye. Yes? Let's get to work. Shitty circumstances to have to work in and navigate? No doubt about it. Stay competitive while also trying to rebuild is no easy task. But that's the job. And yes, even Gillis or Allvin would look like shit GMs with that mandate on the table. They would be trading some futures and signing stop gaps to stay competitive just the same. 

 

Giliis was never in this circumstance? Well no shit. He had an established team full of stars pushing for a cup. Benning had a team full of aging assets and nothing in the pipeline. And yeah they were grizzled alright. Nobody was giving up 1st round picks for them the were so grizzled. And moving on from them when they may have been able too theoretically get more from them was never an option.  Completely different circumstances between the two.  It's basically apples and oranges.

 

Also, I wasn't talking about the 2014 (retooled team) being complete dogshit. But rather the many "rebuild" years after that. eg. linden vey, granlund, etc etc.

 

There is no "convincing" here though. For example, do you think Kyle Dubas could have convinced the Fenway Sports Group and their board of directors to tear down in Penguins? We all know that's the right move right now. Aging vets, and they're loading up with a guy like Erik Karlsson to go on another run? We know how this movie ends.   Once again, just because it makes the most sense on paper and the best way to rebuild doesn't necessarily make it a realistic outcome.  Sid, Geno, and Letang arent going anywhere. Just like Hank and Danny werent going anywhere. So what do you do.   Exactly what they are doing.

 

And JR is in a bit of different position though. Coming in when he can put in the final touches on the previous work of others (like Gillis with Nonis and Burkes team.) We know Aqua wouldnt pull that stuff with JR(if all the previous rumours of meddling are true that is.) JR would quit at the drop of a hat. Too old for BS.  And a close friend of his did an interview stating he knew Frankie has way too much respect for JR to do that anyway. Which I fully believe. JR has cups. Knows what they need to do and how to do it. He likely didn't "have to say" much of anything. His reputation and experience in the league speaks for itself.

 

 

And we have to get into the dirty details if we want to make those kinds of judgments.  There was good. There was bad. Not everything will be a home run for any GM... especially if were judging through that "not tank rebuild so all stay competivie moves are bad" lens.   It's simply not that cut and dry.

 

That core you speak of came from the previous regime remember. Just as Gillis core came from Nonis and Burke.

This isn't to say Giliis or AV and PR arent taking them to the next step, but give credit where credit is due.  And i don't agree a retool is harder than a rebuild. its harder to find a new all star players worth building around in the first place, drafting, developing, etc. and i don't even think its close. The easy part is finding the supporting pieces after the fact.

 

 

Dismissing as "word salad" is great indication you simply don't understand the concepts being discussed or how they are being applied.  There's no letting anyone off the hook here. I'm challenging what people are ON THE HOOK for what in the first place.

 

I happen to put the reality of business at the center, but then even that isn't about "blame" per se. Just a shit fucking reality we all have to deal with in terms of life and society itself. I dont like it either. But that's just the way it is. And looking at a hockey club here is no different. At the mercy of the same market as any other business in a market economy.   But if that's just more 'word salad' to you i might suggest digging into some macro structure economics.

 

 

It doesn't eliminate the argument. It goes directly to the point!

 

Exactly.  Why didn't he then? Why would the organization consciously choose the worst rebuild plan possible??  stay competitive... while rebuilding?? what possible reasons could there be for this billion dollar company to do that. 

 

seems pretty obvious. and see points above.

 

 

No, and no benning is not the devil.

 

 

No "thinking is changed." Only the conditions in which the team exists and what they have to work with. Concerns with a good product are different than the concerns with a bad one.

 

And i could ask you the same. Why don't you and all the toxic religious zealots move on? You're the ones fighting so hard against any challenge to your holy texts  of hatred. It's pretty funny. 

 

 

 

And stating  "convince the owner otherwise" shows how completely naive and idealistic these claim really are. Even Trevor Linden couldn't convince the organization to take a different path. Yet you expect a GM to be able to change that? No.

 

Do you think JR who had a much lengthier and experienced record didn’t have any effect on Francesco on what had to be done here?  And would have just taken the job and continued along with whatever Francesco’s fantasies about how to build a team were?
You are saying that Benning had  no choice because…I guess greed made him do it?, and that’s a perfectly fine reason for you.  How could he possibly stand on any principles when that kind of cash is waved in his face for humouring the owner who fancied himself the smartest man in the room. Because…..someone other sycophant would have eagerly replaced him?  Greed is a powerful drug. But it doesn’t excuse his succumbing to it.  Like a heroin addict who steals. You don’t overlook the crime because he’s addicted to something.  The addict can shout all he wants that if he hadn’t stolen it, another junkie would have, it doesn’t excuse his guilt.
Like I said, it was both Benning and Francesco who were at fault.  Francesco had Muskism, and  Benning tried to fool himself and the public in order to justify his job.  And TBO it worked for him and his family. He made more as a GM here than as he ever did as a player.

 

Lots of ways to rebuild a team. Some ways better than others? May theoretically get you to a destination faster for longer? Potentially. But theres no guarantees. And that doesn't mean you can't be a legit contender just because you didn't rebuild exactly like X, Pure fantasy

 

Yes there are other ways.  And no, there are no guarantees.  But there are times in a team’s cycle when a rebuild is in order. When as Torts said “the team is stale”.  And there are times when more of a retool is the logical choice. When you have a younger talented core in place.

 

The point of a rebuild is to acquire a core of stars to build around.

 

No, the point of a rebuild is to rebuild the whole team, usually from the goaltender out. Acquiring the core of stars is not the difficult part once you initiate the rebuild…trade away most of the producing veterans still on the team resulting in a drop in the standings for a few years, resulting in top picks…ie core. That part’s not rocket science.
The real work is finding the pieces to surround them. To outsmart the other GMs into winning trade deals, recognize the time to take advantage of other teams situations, to find other gems in later rounds, or from colleges.

 

And yes, even Gillis or Allvin would look like shit GMs with that mandate on the table. They would be trading some futures and signing stop gaps to stay competitive just the same.

 

I’ll answer Gillis’s reason for not doing that with your own Erika moment:

Giliis was never in this circumstance? Well no shit. He had an established team full of stars pushing for a cup.
And when that mandate was on the table?  Gillis got fired for pushing for it. So, no he didn’t go along with it.
 
And Allvin? Uh…he did have that same mandate.  And he’s fulfilling it quite well.  You fail to understand that NOW a retool is the proper course.  So why wouldn’t he agree with that mandate?  You have no idea if Allvin would have accepted a completely wrong direction order from an owner if he didn’t believe in it.

 

Also, I wasn't talking about the 2014 (retooled team) being complete dogshit. But rather the many "rebuild" years after that. eg. linden vey, granlund, etc etc.

 

I believe you said Benning inheirited  “dog shit” from Gillis.
But now you are saying it was only after Benning got his hands on the team it turned to “dog shit”. We agree on something!

 

Just like Hank and Danny werent going anywhere. So what do you do

 

They didn’t have to go anywhere. You need to get to the bottom of the cap with at least some veterans, even in a rebuild.

 

And i don't agree a retool is harder than a rebuild. its harder to find a new all star players worth building around in the first place, drafting, developing, etc. and i don't even think its close. The easy part is finding the supporting pieces after the fact.

 

Again, no its not harder to find the all star players if you continuously get top picks.  We could have just as easily been building the team around Nylander, Konecny, Tkachuk, Heiskanen, Bouchard, Caufield, based on who else was available when we picked. Not to mention Andersson (we gave up for Baerchi), McCann, Forsling, and others who were not developed here properly.  And if we’d really stunk we could have won a lottery in there somewhere it could have been McDavid, or Mathews thrown in.  The not so easy part is the second tier players who play above their pay grade and allow the star players to shine.  Also, to find the right coach. Both of which Benning failed at miserably.

 

 Exactly.  Why didn't he then? Why would the organization consciously choose the worst rebuild plan possible??  stay competitive... while rebuilding?? what possible reasons could there be for this billion dollar company to do that.

 

You’re asking the wrong guy.  Why would they choose the worst course? Especially after a few years seeing how it’s not working.  Especially if the plan of “staying competitive” was not happening.  Everyone was willing to give Benning some amount of rope to work with, even me. But how could ownership not be smart enough to understand basic business principles of investment and reward? Have they seen that the New York Rangers are the most profitable NHL team?  Only 5 years after they wrote an honest letter to fans and started their own rebuild? There is more than one way to build a team as you said, and that means there is also more than one way for that to generate profits for the owners. Tread water enough to fill the house to 2/3rds for eight years, or go all in with a rebuild, and eventually fill the house to capacity AND have a better shot at handing your dad Luigi, the Stanley Cup.

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

17 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Just like Hank and Danny werent going anywhere. So what do you do

Funny thing was, *BOTH* Sedins still managed to be in the top 20 in points that first season under Jim Benning.  Benning should be given some credit for that in he signed Vrbata in the off-season (and had a pretty respectable first season there) & fit in great with them.  Then Benning traded for a *SOLID* defensive center to following off-season (as Kesler was gone) but Willie decides to put Sutter with the Sedins for some reason.  Leaving a less than ideal Horvat (who was just a sophmore after all) handling the tough defensive center assignment (when you had a FAR MORE capable player in Sutter to handle that role).  Unfortunately Bonino had to go in that deal for Sutter.  So that left Vrbata with who as his center?  At least Willie smartened up during the season & put Vrbata back with the twins.  But the damage was done (imho).

Edited November 23, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan