Francesco Aquillini and Jim Benning --Tales of a Rebuild: Misconceptions, Misery, and Money

[conquestofbaguettes]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:36 PM, SV. said:

You're correct.  In the same way that Yzerman's fingerprints are on BriseBois's cups, Tallon's on Bowman's, Patrick and Shero's on Rutherford's, O'Connell and Gorton on Chiarelli's and Benning's, and so forth.

My point is the history books and fan accounts won't and don't care enough to go back to the genesis.  It only matters who actually got it done.

 

100%. And a fundamental problem in how we conceptualize the world and document human history itself. We all stand on the shoulders of giants, afterall... whether we recognize it or not.

Edited November 24, 2023 by conquestofbaguettes

[conquestofbaguettes]

12 hours ago, The Lock said:

 

I don't see the point in debating with you because you're clearly not here to listen to arguments as you've displayed in your interpretation of my arguments. You're just here to have a tantrum, at least that's what you're showing. If we can have a civil discussion, then I can continue. Until then, stop making crap up about "what I'm thinking' and putting words in my  mouth. Until you do that, you're not worth my time of day.

Says the guy who refuses to look or think about anything I'm saying.

 

There is no words being put in your mouth. You're doing that all on your own by stating what you're stating my friend. I reckon you just don't like me analyzing them and calling out the logic contained within it. That's literally all I'm doing there.

 

The kicker here I actually I don't give two shits about any of these fucking millionaires were discussing. Lol. 

 

The hockey team itself is like aside to the larger structural issues I'm talking about, which happen to include the business of hockey... but that's just de facto reality.

But even discussing the business of NHL hockey is like one tiny fucking part of a hundred million things we could point to terms of cause and effect of "the system." It's all about the economic underpinnings in which all exist and which we are all beholden to-- it's inescapable!  And if that isn't a core focus in how we analyze decision making and subsequent behavior, we're not talking about much at all. Just surface level bs.

Edited November 24, 2023 by conquestofbaguettes

[conquestofbaguettes]

7 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

Yeah well, if two flat-earthers waded into an Earth scientist conference, and then kept doubling down after being presented with logic and historical facts, what would you expect?

 

I agree. Problem is you're one of the flat earthers and don't even know it.

 

[conquestofbaguettes]

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

Do you think JR who had a much lengthier and experienced record didn’t have any effect on Francesco on what had to be done here? 

Different team with different underlying circumstances. Different time and place. Not the same thing at all.

 

I already explained why this was apples and oranges when you brought up comparing Gillis in the same way. Same thing.

 

 

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

You are saying that Benning had  no choice because…I guess greed made him do it?, and that’s a perfectly fine reason for you.

 

Just tell ya boss no. Just like that.

 Just that easy.  because that's real life. Smh.

 

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

No, the point of a rebuild is to rebuild the whole team, usually from the goaltender out. Acquiring the core of stars is not the difficult part once you initiate the rebuild…trade away most of the producing veterans still on the team resulting in a drop in the standings for a few years, resulting in top picks…ie core. That part’s not rocket science.

And when the mandate is to stay competitive, it takes longer to do. We would all have loved for that to happen faster but that's the reality of the situation.  And yes finding the core to actually build around is the hard part.... especially when dual goals are on the table. The complimentary pieces is the easy part. The fun part. Its a fucking slog of playing the lotto with largely educated guessing to acquire superstars.

 

 

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

And Allvin? Uh…he did have that same mandate.  And he’s fulfilling it quite well.  You fail to understand that NOW a retool is the proper course.  So why wouldn’t he agree with that mandate?  You have no idea if Allvin would have accepted a completely wrong direction order from an owner if he didn’t believe in it.

 

It's easier to keep the coffers full with stars that will draw. NHL hockey is the Entertainment business. Yes of course those underlying demands are the same for Allvin or even Gillis. But they have products that will draw. Benning didn't really have that.  "Fulfilling the mandate" is dependant on the product. So yes, he's fulfilling it quite well.   Yet even that is built on the works of others before him.

 

But I'll give you partial credit for that one. Stating "same mandate" even though the follow up statements are off the mark I can least see you're on the right path... even though  getting the right answer for the wrong reason.

 

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

I believe you said Benning inheirited  “dog shit” from Gillis.
But now you are saying it was only after Benning got his hands on the team it turned to “dog shit”. We agree on something!

 

No. I said not complete dogshit. They still had a few pieces. Not a lot but a few.  No thanks to Gillis.

 

 

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

’ll answer Gillis’s reason for not doing that with your own Erika moment

 

You mean "Eureka" moment? Heh

 

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

Again, no its not harder to find the all star players if you continuously get top picks.  We could have just as easily been building the team around Nylander, Konecny, Tkachuk, Heiskanen, Bouchard, Caufield, based on who else was available when we picked. Not to mention Andersson (we gave up for Baerchi), McCann, Forsling, and others who were not developed here properly.  And if we’d really stunk we could have won a lottery in there somewhere it could have been McDavid, or Mathews thrown in.  The not so easy part is the second tier players who play above their pay grade and allow the star players to shine.  Also, to find the right coach. Both of which Benning failed at miserably.

 

No. Expecting 100% accuracy, especially with hindsight being 20/20,  and failing to account for the fact drafting is mere educated guessing is your failure. Also McCann and Forsling is low hanging fruit. McCann went through how many teams lol. Forsling went thru 4 teams and even made it thru waivers. Went on waivers a 2nd time before a team finally picked him up. 

 

Yes. Drafting the core is the hard part.

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

You’re asking the wrong guy.  Why would they choose the worst course?

 

No. I'm literally asking you your opinion

 

We all know that is a damn horrible way to rebuild.  To stay competitive..while trying to rebuild?

 

why tf would any company choose to do that. Why would any company try to make product that would appeal to consumers.  You know the answer.

 

And now apply that answer to what happened all those years and why we saw damn near everything we saw.

 

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

There is more than one way to build a team as you said, and that means there is also more than one way for that to generate profits for the owners. Tread water enough to fill the house to 2/3rds for eight years, or go all in with a rebuild, and eventually fill the house to capacity AND have a better shot at handing your dad Luigi, the Stanley Cup.

 

And that's your assessment.  And what's that really based on? We dont have a copy of the organizations books to judge that. So what are you actually basing this opinion on.

 

They aren't idiots here. They knew the best course of action. Doesn't mean they can do it in real world though.

 

We should explore the universe. Build space ships, all countries united as a human species. Stop dumping money into war. The best idea.

 

But that doesnt mean it can actually happen right here and now just because we know it's the best and most ideal way to exist and progress. Other things get in the way. This is no different talking about the needs and obligations in running a business. And staying "competitive" is directly related to this.

 

But if you can think of a rational reason why they would choose such a path,  I'm all ears. Because so far you and others have provided no other explanations beyond "they just dumb." Which is laughable on its face.

 

This is big fucking money here. Billion dollar company. And they don't make these kinds of decisions lightly.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by conquestofbaguettes

[LillStrimma]

56 minutes ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

This is big fucking money here. Billion dollar company. 

I love it... This was my strongest argument before. It happens a lot that the loosing side tries to take the strongest argument of the other side and try make it their own. You're doing a nice job doing so. 
 

Benning was more of an old school, manipulative leader that tried to save his own face in every situation.

 

The absolute wrong leader for a(back then) multi million dollar company.

 

My argument against your analysis is just look at the Trump organisation.

The corruption is so grave these days so people can say absolute everything and believe they can get away with it.

And it's the truth unless someone talks about it.

So if Linden tells the real story behind the curtain about scouting he is a hero.

A hero talks about the lies in a company.

 

I'm glad though that Benning didn't hire his own son as Trump did with his children...

[conquestofbaguettes]

1 hour ago, LillStrimma said:

I love it... This was my strongest argument before. It happens a lot that the loosing side tries to take the strongest argument of the other side and try make it their own. You're doing a nice job doing so. 
 

Benning was more of an old school, manipulative leader that tried to save his own face in every situation.

 

The absolute wrong leader for a(back then) multi million dollar company.

 

My argument against your analysis is just look at the Trump organisation.

The corruption is so grave these days so people can say absolute everything and believe they can get away with it.

And it's the truth unless someone talks about it.

So if Linden tells the real story behind the curtain about scouting he is a hero.

A hero talks about the lies in a company.

 

I'm glad though that Benning didn't hire his own son as Trump did with his children...

 

Wat?

 

You may want to go back and reread my original post (which started off this whole damn thread) before you claim "flipping sides" which I can assure you is not the case here. In fact it's basis of the whole thesis.

 

Yes, this is a billion dollar institution were talking about. Therefore nobody should be surprised those at the top would advocate protecting it at all costs. ie. Choosing to stay "competitive" while rebuilding at the same time. There's simply more to this stuff than the mere "hockey team" here. And we should delve into that aspect further.

[filthy animal]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:28 PM, SV. said:

Why are you adamant that he and others are the ones doing the trolling?

You do realize you're the one who's been going to bat for a former GM that oversaw one of the worst eras of hockey, not just in Canucks history, but in all of the NHL?

Surely, you have to realize you're the one who's been teetering closer to trolling territory than anybody else has in this discussion?

 

Well as you can see, Anthony has a lot of time on his hands, most likely because of unemployment or being the only one in this thread thats probably still a virgin. Hard to believe how someone has that much time to react on practically EVERY sliver of Jim Benning hate, all hours of the week. No surprise that every thread Anthony has ever gotten himself involved in has turned toxic. The guy has nothing else better to do but to make excuses as facts and act like a tough guy behind a keyboard

Edited November 24, 2023 by filthy animal

[filthy animal]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:36 PM, SV. said:

You're correct.  In the same way that Yzerman's fingerprints are on BriseBois's cups, Tallon's on Bowman's, Patrick and Shero's on Rutherford's, O'Connell and Gorton on Chiarelli's and Benning's, and so forth.

My point is the history books and fan accounts won't and don't care enough to go back to the genesis.  It only matters who actually got it done.

 

Exactly and thats what these Benning fanboys don't understand, not surprising with their level IQ barely hitting double digits. There's no asterisks beside Gillis, or Rutherfords name on the record books, no honorary mentions, nothing. When Rutherford/ Alvin or had Gillis won the cup, the previous regimes dont get their names on the cup or a ring, hell not even a thank you note so this notion that we have to bow down to who came before them quite LITERALLY doesn't matter, save for the few rejects that like to puff their chests up in a forum and come up with conspiracies and lame excuses.

 

I saw in a few pages prior you guys were using a cake analogy on Gillis' work, how most agreed that Nonis and Burke baked the batter and Gillis added the sprinkles. Cake gets bought (or consumed). So if anybody has bought a cake, tv or couch etc, if you look at the receipt, does it show the breakdown who did what? Exactly because it doesn't matter

 

Benning should be in the ring of honor though, and i don't mean the one near the roof of the arena, its the toilet seat in the mens (or womens!) washroom

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by filthy animal

[LillStrimma]

58 minutes ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

Wat?

 

You may want to go back and reread my original post (which started off this whole damn thread) before you claim "flipping sides" which I can assure you is not the case here. In fact it's basis of the whole thesis.

 

Yes, this is a billion dollar institution were talking about. Therefore nobody should be surprised those at the top would advocate protecting it at all costs. ie. Choosing to stay "competitive" while rebuilding at the same time. There's simply more to this stuff than the mere "hockey team" here. And we should delve into that aspect further.

We have delved into that aspect too much now since it doesn’t change anything.

 

we are quite many now that has shown evidence of Bennings bad decisions irrelevant if it’s a billion dollar company or not. They are just bad.

It can’t be hidden in the closer anymore or under the rug.

Bennings one shot at being a GM came because Linden and FA were rookies at their position and fooled by Bennings sweet talk. 
The evidence is all over and the more Benning took control by himself the worse it got.

I talked about how Benning wasn’t fit to be a GM many years ago and that a modern multi million dollar company has to replace him with a modern type of leader.

Hence Allvin came in instead and seems to be that kind of leader that suits a billion dollar company.

FA only lost a lot of millions in the process to identify the problem with his company. 
And that is due to his inexperience with NHL. 

[filthy animal]

Don't mind me, just waiting for another link to that Chris Gear interview

[filthy animal]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:21 PM, AnthonyG said:

This here says so much more about you as a person than as a fan. You come across as a bitter, heartbroken jealous individual who hasnt gotten over their ex and continues trying to convince themself you are over that person. You hate a guy so strongly for having to rebuild this shithole with zero trade chips that had no say in where they were going. An empty prospect pool, aged out core worth next to nothing. Yet you are so thankless for Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Miller and Boeser. We have guys showing promise in Hoglander, potential NHLers in the farm finally, Silovs, Podkolzin, Karlsson. It just shows how deeply bitter you are as a person, I will not give any further time to such a person.

 

and yet you make constant excuses wah wah he's only here because of this guy, wah wah hes just successful because this happened. Speaks to how youre doing in life, probably in the unemployment line considering how much time you spend bitching and whining about Daddy Benning.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by filthy animal

[nzan]

14 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Cant have your cake and eat it too.

 

I've never understood this saying - you totally can.

Literally every time I've ever eaten cake I also had the cake.

[SV.]

10 hours ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

100%. And a fundamental problem in how we conceptualize the world and document human history itself. We all stand on the shoulders of giants, afterall... whether we recognize it or not.

Not to put words in your mouth, but hasn't the whole premise of this thread - going off what you have been saying - been to demonstrate the overarching and almost omnipresent influence of ownership on the team?  Tough to see how people are standing on each other's soldiers when everything from you up until this comment has implied that history is a chess game, where the pieces have no control over what they're doing and how they acted.

[SV.]

LOL, meant to write shoulders.  Oh well, I'll leave this iconic spelling mistake in.

6 minutes ago, SV. said:

Not to put words in your mouth, but hasn't the whole premise of this thread - going off what you have been saying - been to demonstrate the overarching and almost omnipresent influence of ownership on the team?  Tough to see how people are standing on each other's soldiers when everything from you up until this comment has implied that history is a chess game, where the pieces have no control over what they're doing and how they acted.

[DSVII]

18 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

You are one of few that dive into statistics so it's easy for you.

 

Virtanen party like it was 1999 and Petey train. You can't seriously compare them.

Regarding Petey, it's more a mental issue he has to go through, not a fitness issue.

He sets a high goal for himself and test newer sticks or grade on the skates. Every adjustment Petey makes  leads to time before he regain the same success at NHL level.

One example was when he changed the grade on the skates. Suddenly he started to fall when he was trying to turn quickly.

 

Is it truly a dive when you spam a gish gallop of stats without context and confidently believe something will stick to the wall?

Edited November 24, 2023 by DSVII

[canuck73_3]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:33 PM, LillStrimma said:

And Gillis, Hronek is because of gillis  

Moreso Allvin but yeah we can acknowledge Gillis’ one good draft pick. 

[LillStrimma]

8 minutes ago, DSVII said:

 

Is it truly a dive when you spam a gish gallop of stats without context and confidently believe something will stick to the wall?

It's a pity he didn't take my challenge and dived deeper into the abyss. 

[LillStrimma]

3 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Moreso Allvin but yeah we can acknowledge Gillis’ one good draft pick. 

Wow, I think I'm gonna print your answer to my post and frame it. It should be on my wall 

First ever almost positive 

[canuck73_3]

Just now, LillStrimma said:

Wow, I think I'm gonna print your answer to my post and frame it. It should be on my wall 

First ever almost positive 

I have said Gillis had many strengths but drafting wasn’t one of them for years. I have also defended him many times that people are clouded by his poor drafting that they overlook his positives. What do you mean almost positive? 

[DSVII]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:19 PM, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

Yes. So let's start here.

 

Money is the core driver in any corporation.

 

Canucks Sports and Entertainment is a corporation.

 

Selling a product or service is what corporations do.

 

They sell these products and services to make profit.

 

A shit product can hinder consumers from consuming their product.

 

A better product can help to keep consumers consuming their product.

 

Any guesses why a corporation would choose to build a better product rather than a guaranteed shitty one?

 

I agree with all these steps.

 

The Canucks iced a shit product. The market still stuck with the team despite the bottom 10 results in consecutive years. The Canucks have a unique moat in Vancouver (as Warren Buffet would say), since there are no other major sports here. It's a captive market essentially and can help the org weather that shitty result.

 

And corporations, in both small and big markets, have chosen to build a better product through the rebuild route because it has been shown to have the highest probability of getting that better product down the line, especially given that is how the league is set up with the draft system and salary cap rules for ELCs. All the modern day cup winners have gone through a rebuild of sorts.

 

What I'm not agreeing with is you assertion of what a rebuild is that you laid out in post 1.

 

Otherwise what is your explanation for these franchises like the Houston Astros and the Chicago Blackhawks choosing the rebuild route? Bigger and smaller (Tampa Bay Lightning was a <250M franchise in a smaller and tougher market when they rebuilt) corporations than the Canucks with the same or more data have determined that economically, a rebuild, while a necessary evil, has a higher probability of building a better product than a competitive retool. 

 

And if we're talking business, there is what is called taking a 'big bath' in the accounting world. That is if you're going to be bad, you may as well be EXTREMELY bad. Dump as much crap as you can into that business year or period that you are purging bad assets off your books. That way, the following year, you will look extremely good. 

 

And in some cases, owners may not mind their teams losing money for a little bit because it is a way to bury their tax obligations with loss carryforwards that can offset their other profitable businesses. So with that in mind, I don't necessarily agree that all teams are allergic to low attendance and ratings if there is a good reason to incur that loss for that period of time. 

 

Gotta see the situation for each owner. For every Ted Leonisis, there is a Jerry Jones who sees the team as little more than a toy.

 

And you have owners like Geoff Molson, who saw a stanley cup finals berth two years ago :  “We’re not afraid of that word,” the Canadiens’ owner/president said during a lengthy one-on-one interview Thursday afternoon in his seventh-floor office at the Bell Centre. “We played a lot of games with five rookie defencemen this year. That’s a rebuild.”

 

“I don’t know how patient our fans will be, but I’m very impressed with how supportive they are of a team that’s in 28th place,” the 52-year-old Molson added. “It’s been 14 years I’ve been doing this and I don’t know of a point in my lifetime where the Montreal Canadiens have said: ‘We’re doing a rebuild,’ and I did it. The fans, it’s almost like they’ve been waiting for it and they’re happy that we’re doing it.

 

A rebuild is essentially that chance for the org to reset. And Megacorps bigger and smaller than the Canucks have done that with much success. 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Who said I was giving ANYONE a pass here? 

 

Merely pointing out there's more going on than "they just dumb" isn't giving anyone a pass. Christ you act like I was all aboard with every decision the previous regime made. Or the one before that.

 

This isn't some black and white, pro and anti ANYTHING.  If anything, bringing this whole "business" aspect is showing my hatred for capitalism itself. The profit margin.  That is and will be that ugly truth beneath the surface nobody seems to want to talk about.

 

If this NHL team was free from any kind of underlying business financial demands, i would agree with every damn thing you're saying. Then these things you're saying would be realistic expectations. But they aren't because that's not the reality of the situation! Never was!

 

I don't like that they didn't intentionally tank either, dude. It hurt them long term! Wasted assets, didn't maximize returns.... a long long list of shit. This stuff was never in contention.

 

But...  were talking about the nature of business itself, man.  Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

1.) That wasn't in reference to you.

 

2.) It's not, "they just dumb". It's they made a mistake. And it's also possible to choose the right strategy, and fudge up the execution. Which is what Benning did. I have no doubt that given the materials to work with in 2014, a better GM could have made the team into that non-shitty product.

 

3.) Crony capitalism is the worst form of capitalism, i think well regulated, capitalism works. The profit margin works. You just need to have that multi-year plan. And as evidenced by your Houston Astros example, companies will take the short term pain if it can be shown to translate into future exponential growth.

 

4.) The nature of business is cyclical, and also involves reacting to the reality of the market/product and making the hard choice to restructure, downsize and reimagine the product during downturns as well. It's just how well management can sell that same vision to the ownership and execute it well.

 

If anything, the moves in 2014 onwards was the org trying to push against the very nature of business by ignoring those natural cycles and trying to short cut their way back to competitiveness.

 

 

-------

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by DSVII

[LillStrimma]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

I have said Gillis had many strengths but drafting wasn’t one of them for years. I have also defended him many times that people are clouded by his poor drafting that they overlook his positives. What do you mean almost positive? 

The ”Moreso Allvin but yeah” beginning. The reluctant agreeing part you talked about. 
 

When you answer a truly poitive golden nugget I will put it on the mantel piece.

[kilgore]

13 hours ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

20 hours ago, kilgore said:

There is more than one way to build a team as you said, and that means there is also more than one way for that to generate profits for the owners. Tread water enough to fill the house to 2/3rds for eight years, or go all in with a rebuild, and eventually fill the house to capacity AND have a better shot at handing your dad Luigi, the Stanley Cup.

 

And that's your assessment.  And what's that really based on? We dont have a copy of the organizations books to judge that. So what are you actually basing this opinion on.

 

They aren't idiots here. They knew the best course of action. Doesn't mean they can do it in real world though.

 

We should explore the universe. Build space ships, all countries united as a human species. Stop dumping money into war. The best idea.

 

But that doesnt mean it can actually happen right here and now just because we know it's the best and most ideal way to exist and progress. Other things get in the way. This is no different talking about the needs and obligations in running a business. And staying "competitive" is directly related to this.

 

But if you can think of a rational reason why they would choose such a path,  I'm all ears. Because so far you and others have provided no other explanations beyond "they just dumb." Which is laughable on its face.

 

This is big fucking money here. Billion dollar company. And they don't make these kinds of decisions lightly.

 

 

What's that really based on?  You mean the financial merits of doing a real strip down rebuild? 

What am it basing this "opinion" on?

 

Well, firstly I wouldn't call it an opinion.  Its an actual thing in the real world.  As Geoff Molson is quoted above admitting its what he is doing in Montreal.  Its the way Chicago got their shot at Bedard.  Its the way the Sharks will have a shot at Celebrini or Eiserman this upcoming draft.

 

You seem to have a cast in iron antiquated business model that doesn't take into account the uniqueness of owning a professional sports team. Where there is a restraining cap on all teams.  Like some kind of socialist system inside of a capitalist system. And that even though, in your words, if I'm reading you right, you are saying that a rebuild was totally the best way to go back in Benning's early days...the owners just COULDN'T do it.  Because?  short term profits would be reduced for a few years? And that they were obliged by the great Capitalist Business Gods who trump the Hockey Gods I guess?  They had no choice.

 

And you can't fathom that they ' be just dumb' so you arrive at the conclusion that in the end no one is really at fault.

 

Benning: A GM candidate who HAD to accept the position even if he disagreed with the owners vision. Who knows, maybe he had gambling debts.  And then proceeded to try his best to fulfill it but ultimately failed because he wasn't cut out for the job. But he tried real real hard, but it was doomed anyways because it was the owners fault for hiring him and telling him how to do his job.

>

Aquilini:  Except it wasn't actually the owners fault at all because he was compelled by forces outside of his control. Some unwritten business rule that you never should take a step back, clear the baggage, re-invest and re-build to make the product better in a few years than it is now and reap the profits later.  No...you keep slogging away barley keeping above water, giving your customer just enough to keep enough of them satisfied and to not go into the red.  That no matter how "dumb" that sounds.....it just CAN'T be dumb because they is rich, so they is smart.

>

No one:  Yes! its all HIS fault!!

 

But if you can think of a rational reason why they would choose such a path,  I'm all ears. Because so far you and others have provided no other explanations beyond "they just dumb." Which is laughable on its face.

 

Why do we have to provide for you a "rational reason" why they would shoot themselves in the foot for years before you could ever admit they did that?  There is no rational reason. But there may be an irrational human reason. They are human, with ego involved. Could you entertain the idea that decisions made, even in the billionaire world, might be made by flawed humans or mistaken humans, humans so wealthy that everyone around them tells them their ideas are brilliant? (Musk buying Twitter) Francesco had stated he wanted to win a Stanley Cup while his father was alive. So its not necessarily evil intentions. Humans make mistakes. Ego and impatience can make us humans make "dumb" decisions sometimes.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by kilgore

[canuck73_3]

3 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

The ”Moreso Allvin but yeah” beginning. The reluctant agreeing part you talked about. 
 

When you answer a truly poitive golden nugget I will put it on the mantel piece.

Well Allvin made the trade did he not? Not sure how Gillis gets more of the credit for a trade he didn’t make…

[Ballisticsports]

22 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

And stating  "convince the owner otherwise" shows how completely naive and idealistic these claim really are. Even Trevor Linden couldn't convince the organization to take a different path. Yet you expect a GM to be able to change that? No.

 

Do you think JR who had a much lengthier and experienced record didn’t have any effect on Francesco on what had to be done here?  And would have just taken the job and continued along with whatever Francesco’s fantasies about how to build a team were?
You are saying that Benning had  no choice because…I guess greed made him do it?, and that’s a perfectly fine reason for you.  How could he possibly stand on any principles when that kind of cash is waved in his face for humouring the owner who fancied himself the smartest man in the room. Because…..someone other sycophant would have eagerly replaced him?  Greed is a powerful drug. But it doesn’t excuse his succumbing to it.  Like a heroin addict who steals. You don’t overlook the crime because he’s addicted to something.  The addict can shout all he wants that if he hadn’t stolen it, another junkie would have, it doesn’t excuse his guilt.
Like I said, it was both Benning and Francesco who were at fault.  Francesco had Muskism, and  Benning tried to fool himself and the public in order to justify his job.  And TBO it worked for him and his family. He made more as a GM here than as he ever did as a player.

 

Lots of ways to rebuild a team. Some ways better than others? May theoretically get you to a destination faster for longer? Potentially. But theres no guarantees. And that doesn't mean you can't be a legit contender just because you didn't rebuild exactly like X, Pure fantasy

 

Yes there are other ways.  And no, there are no guarantees.  But there are times in a team’s cycle when a rebuild is in order. When as Torts said “the team is stale”.  And there are times when more of a retool is the logical choice. When you have a younger talented core in place.

 

The point of a rebuild is to acquire a core of stars to build around.

 

No, the point of a rebuild is to rebuild the whole team, usually from the goaltender out. Acquiring the core of stars is not the difficult part once you initiate the rebuild…trade away most of the producing veterans still on the team resulting in a drop in the standings for a few years, resulting in top picks…ie core. That part’s not rocket science.
The real work is finding the pieces to surround them. To outsmart the other GMs into winning trade deals, recognize the time to take advantage of other teams situations, to find other gems in later rounds, or from colleges.

 

And yes, even Gillis or Allvin would look like shit GMs with that mandate on the table. They would be trading some futures and signing stop gaps to stay competitive just the same.

 

I’ll answer Gillis’s reason for not doing that with your own Erika moment:

Giliis was never in this circumstance? Well no shit. He had an established team full of stars pushing for a cup.
And when that mandate was on the table?  Gillis got fired for pushing for it. So, no he didn’t go along with it.
 
And Allvin? Uh…he did have that same mandate.  And he’s fulfilling it quite well.  You fail to understand that NOW a retool is the proper course.  So why wouldn’t he agree with that mandate?  You have no idea if Allvin would have accepted a completely wrong direction order from an owner if he didn’t believe in it.

 

Also, I wasn't talking about the 2014 (retooled team) being complete dogshit. But rather the many "rebuild" years after that. eg. linden vey, granlund, etc etc.

 

I believe you said Benning inheirited  “dog shit” from Gillis.
But now you are saying it was only after Benning got his hands on the team it turned to “dog shit”. We agree on something!

 

Just like Hank and Danny werent going anywhere. So what do you do

 

They didn’t have to go anywhere. You need to get to the bottom of the cap with at least some veterans, even in a rebuild.

 

And i don't agree a retool is harder than a rebuild. its harder to find a new all star players worth building around in the first place, drafting, developing, etc. and i don't even think its close. The easy part is finding the supporting pieces after the fact.

 

Again, no its not harder to find the all star players if you continuously get top picks.  We could have just as easily been building the team around Nylander, Konecny, Tkachuk, Heiskanen, Bouchard, Caufield, based on who else was available when we picked. Not to mention Andersson (we gave up for Baerchi), McCann, Forsling, and others who were not developed here properly.  And if we’d really stunk we could have won a lottery in there somewhere it could have been McDavid, or Mathews thrown in.  The not so easy part is the second tier players who play above their pay grade and allow the star players to shine.  Also, to find the right coach. Both of which Benning failed at miserably.

 

 Exactly.  Why didn't he then? Why would the organization consciously choose the worst rebuild plan possible??  stay competitive... while rebuilding?? what possible reasons could there be for this billion dollar company to do that.

 

You’re asking the wrong guy.  Why would they choose the worst course? Especially after a few years seeing how it’s not working.  Especially if the plan of “staying competitive” was not happening.  Everyone was willing to give Benning some amount of rope to work with, even me. But how could ownership not be smart enough to understand basic business principles of investment and reward? Have they seen that the New York Rangers are the most profitable NHL team?  Only 5 years after they wrote an honest letter to fans and started their own rebuild? There is more than one way to build a team as you said, and that means there is also more than one way for that to generate profits for the owners. Tread water enough to fill the house to 2/3rds for eight years, or go all in with a rebuild, and eventually fill the house to capacity AND have a better shot at handing your dad Luigi, the Stanley Cup.

 

 

When the reference that Benning could be a pylon, I thought, then why herald a pylon?

If we take FA at his word, when Smyl was beside him at a news conference giving JB all the resources and support and big as staff as he wanted

Where is proof that he has always meddled otherwise?

 

I think an owner states what he hopes to have and when, but I don't believe he calls a GM and says sign Sam Gagner etc at whatever cost

It is up to the GM to work to meet that goal to build a team

 

Interesting to re watch this

 

also in another article

 

“The end of that game was difficult. Just hearing the fans,” Smyl said. “That’s when I felt ‘I have to get involved here a lot more’ and express my views a little stronger. At the end of the day, we’re all responsible — from the players to the management, to the coaches, to the ownership. And we’ve got to make it better. . We’ve got to put thaI think we’ve taken a step back in the direction we want to got game plan together and follow through with it.”

Smyl said he felt the players were “waiting for something to happen” and that finger pointing had begun in management. His team is off the rails, so Steamer is stepping up.

The 63-year-old was named interim general manager on Sunday, but don’t expect him to be a puppet for ownership. He cares too much to be that.

“When I talked to Francesco [about] the position, I told him that I don’t want to be just sitting there watching. I’m going to present things to you. I’m going to be evaluating players. Seeing how the team is going down the road the next three to four weeks, and then make the decisions as we move forward. “I’m going to push Francesco. I think if there’s something to be had that’s going to help this organization, I will talk to Francesco. I will push him on it.” (OMG who talks to their boss like this)?  -I thought Benning supporters say they can't

Francesco Aquilini doesn’t look comfortable in media conferences (1st since hiring TL), and Smyl doesn’t have a ton of recent experience with them either. But Smyl put the team on his back in this presser. Sitting next to the billionaire owner in his first media conference in his new role, Smyl’s passion for the team was obvious.

“I have been a Canuck for 40 years. This is my team. My only team.

“I will always do what’s best for this organization. I will always step up when asked to help. Bottom line, our performance this season has not been good enough. We do have some talented young players and a good core to build around. But we need to be better… There is pride in wearing this Canuck jersey. There is also a huge responsibility that comes with pulling on that jersey… It’s an honour to be sitting here today. This opportunity and responsibility means the world to me, and I will work extremely hard to get this team back on track.”

Eventually a new general manager will be hired, and Aquilini hinted that a president of hockey operations could be brought in also. Smyl, it appears, will help in the selection. Whoever they pick, it’s clear that Smyl hated the way the team played under Jim Benning and Travis Green this season.

“I talked to Francesco about an identity. What is our identity? Where does it start? It starts with your accountability. It starts with your effort,” said Smyl.

“To get out of it, it’s not just going to be one individual. It’s going to take a team and they’ve got to come back to being a team, and make it hard to play against. That’s the identity I want for this organization, to be hard to play against. If I’m lining up against you, I’m going to make it as miserable as possible. That was my message to Francesco. I talked to the players about that this morning. I think that’s an important area and that’s an area we’ve got to start in.”

Smyl wasn’t someone that many people were expecting much from in this role, so his passion and honesty was a nice surprise. He’s been with the team for over 40 years, but judging by the reaction from fans on social media, the Steamer just became a fan favourite with a whole new generation of fans.

 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

2 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

 

When the reference that Benning could be a pylon, I thought, then why herald a pylon?

If we take FA at his word, when Smyl was beside him at a news conference giving JB all the resources and support and big as staff as he wanted

Where is proof that he has always meddled otherwise?

 

I think an owner states what he hopes to have and when, but I don't believe he calls a GM and says sign Sam Gagner etc at whatever cost

It is up to the GM to work to meet that goal to build a team

 

Interesting to re watch this

 

also in another article

 

“The end of that game was difficult. Just hearing the fans,” Smyl said. “That’s when I felt ‘I have to get involved here a lot more’ and express my views a little stronger. At the end of the day, we’re all responsible — from the players to the management, to the coaches, to the ownership. And we’ve got to make it better. . We’ve got to put thaI think we’ve taken a step back in the direction we want to got game plan together and follow through with it.”

Smyl said he felt the players were “waiting for something to happen” and that finger pointing had begun in management. His team is off the rails, so Steamer is stepping up.

The 63-year-old was named interim general manager on Sunday, but don’t expect him to be a puppet for ownership. He cares too much to be that.

“When I talked to Francesco [about] the position, I told him that I don’t want to be just sitting there watching. I’m going to present things to you. I’m going to be evaluating players. Seeing how the team is going down the road the next three to four weeks, and then make the decisions as we move forward. “I’m going to push Francesco. I think if there’s something to be had that’s going to help this organization, I will talk to Francesco. I will push him on it.” (OMG who talks to their boss like this)?  -I thought Benning supporters say they can't

Francesco Aquilini doesn’t look comfortable in media conferences (1st since hiring TL), and Smyl doesn’t have a ton of recent experience with them either. But Smyl put the team on his back in this presser. Sitting next to the billionaire owner in his first media conference in his new role, Smyl’s passion for the team was obvious.

“I have been a Canuck for 40 years. This is my team. My only team.

“I will always do what’s best for this organization. I will always step up when asked to help. Bottom line, our performance this season has not been good enough. We do have some talented young players and a good core to build around. But we need to be better… There is pride in wearing this Canuck jersey. There is also a huge responsibility that comes with pulling on that jersey… It’s an honour to be sitting here today. This opportunity and responsibility means the world to me, and I will work extremely hard to get this team back on track.”

Eventually a new general manager will be hired, and Aquilini hinted that a president of hockey operations could be brought in also. Smyl, it appears, will help in the selection. Whoever they pick, it’s clear that Smyl hated the way the team played under Jim Benning and Travis Green this season.

“I talked to Francesco about an identity. What is our identity? Where does it start? It starts with your accountability. It starts with your effort,” said Smyl.

“To get out of it, it’s not just going to be one individual. It’s going to take a team and they’ve got to come back to being a team, and make it hard to play against. That’s the identity I want for this organization, to be hard to play against. If I’m lining up against you, I’m going to make it as miserable as possible. That was my message to Francesco. I talked to the players about that this morning. I think that’s an important area and that’s an area we’ve got to start in.”

Smyl wasn’t someone that many people were expecting much from in this role, so his passion and honesty was a nice surprise. He’s been with the team for over 40 years, but judging by the reaction from fans on social media, the Steamer just became a fan favourite with a whole new generation of fans.

 

 

Our only undefeated GM.