Francesco Aquillini and Jim Benning --Tales of a Rebuild: Misconceptions, Misery, and Money

[kilgore]

9 hours ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

Funny. That's how I feel about you guys regurgitating misapplied statistics, unfounded narratives, and purporting  surface level understandings of economics and the business that is NHL hockey. 

 

Even when new insightful information comes to light you guys just hand wave and go on like nothing was said at all. It's pretty funny.

 

Benning hate is a religion. It's incredible.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by kilgore

[iceman1964]

On 11/15/2023 at 12:46 AM, conquestofbaguettes said:

Francesco Aquillini and Jim Benning --Tales of a Rebuild: Misconceptions, Misery, and Money

 

It's no secret the past decade triggers rage, resentment, contempt, or whatever other adjective we choose to use to describe our feelings. So I ask, where does it all stem from? It's certainly a messy past and not one specific thing, but a mountain of things that require unpacking.

People believe (myself included) that there were far better, more ideal ways to rebuild this hockey club than the path they ultimately chose.
So, let's explore what the organization did vs. what many believe they should have done:

 

How to "properly" rebuild a hockey team: (not an exhaustive list)

Don't spend to cap every year limiting yourself from becoming a dumping ground for expiring contracts to gain assets.
Don't try to win games. Get blown out every night, tank as hard as possible. Get high picks, as many picks as possible.
Don't trade picks or prospects for players in order to have a better product in the now, and certainly
Don’t build a team that is 'competitive' in the interim

If you find yourself agreeing with any of the above, you are also tacitly agreeing to these:

Do drive away ticket sales, viewership numbers/advertising dollars and merchandise sales for a few years. And additionally
Do ignore overhead costs and the revenue required to maintain and/or continue profiting (if able.)

We must remember...

 

NHL HOCKEY IS A BUSINESS

 

NHL hockey is entertainment; a product, a means to attracting consumers and generating money.
Needless to say, not many are entertained or compelled to invest time, energy, or money in a product with little chance of being entertaining and little chance of winning, especially so with zero mega stars/generational talents aka "attractions" to draw them in. See: Chicago Blackhawks recent season tickets sales winning the lottery.

If you're a team looking at few wins and no mega stars to draw good luck giving your tickets away let alone selling them in this scenario. And wouldn't you know it, tickets were a hard sell during the recent rebuild years. It wasn't even the intentional tank people wanted and yet product consumption was still down:

"Canucks season tickets a tough sell as NHL team struggles." Vancouver Sun. 2017.

"Canucks tickets, merchandise sales hit 'historic' lows." CBC News. 2016.

"Canucks season tickets not selling as well this year. Daily Hive. 2017.

Given they were forced (by who and by what conditions) to stay "competitive" and take a slower approach to rebuilding, what kind of financial losses would an intentional tank have caused?

Fear of dwindling attendance is not uncommon among ownership groups in other profesional sports leagues either. For example, the MLB and NBA:
As Colorado Rockies owner Dick Monfort stated, "We've never tanked and never will... Kansas City's not drawing anybody, right? If the Royals are on a rebuild, this is Year 8 of it. I don't see our fans wanting to come to the games and say we're gonna suck for eight years."

During the Astros' rebuilding years of 2011–2013, when they lost an average of 108 games per season, the team's attendance was cut in half, and one game had a television rating of 0.0.

The NBA sees tanking as a potential major issue, since one of the largest drivers of revenue generation for professional leagues is gate receipts. Canucks ownership is certainly not alone there. And remember...

 

Gates account over an estimated 1/3 of NHL organizations total revenue.

"The NHL generated 35.07% of their operating revenue from ticket sales in 2019-2020."

"Gate revenue is approximately 36.6% of the NHL’s entire revenue for a season (30% in baseball, 22% in NBA basketball, and 15% in the NFL). In contrast, the AHL generates 70-75% of its annual revenue from fans attending games.

And here's a decent dive on the average financials for an average home game if anyone is interested:
NHL financial impact: How much money does a team bring in each home game?

But somehow the hope, belief, demand was that the Canucks should intentionally lose for a 4 or 5 years the worst way possible to get all the picks, the highest picks, and worry about nothing else. In essence, to advocate losing potentially hundreds of millions of dollars from a business perspective. And that was clearly a financial risk this ownership group was never willing to take. So, who is at fault for refusing to tank?

 

Blame Game-- the long, slow, gradual process

 

Do we blame Benning and the management group for executing the "vision" ? With such rigid financial boundaries and guidelines set in front of them, I ask what could anyone reasonably expect.

As former Canucks AGM Chris Gear stated in an interview on Sekeres and Price from 9 months ago,

 

"...there were those of us that didn't agree with a lot of those decisions that fans didn't like either; some of them I supported some of them I didn't but regardless when a decision was made, whether it was the guy above me or two or three above me I supported it."

 

I ask who sits two or three above the AGM in the organizational chart?

Gear continues...

 

"I've always been a supporter of trying to accumulate picks and young players, but you're also limited by what instructions you're given and the dynamics you have to work with."

"...[in 2018]... the organization want[ed] to be competitive. And competitive doesn't mean you have to get into the playoffs or else, but it means we want a winning environment. We want fans to see competitive hockey; We don't want to get shelled 6-1 every night. So that's the environment you're trying to navigate."

 

 

And if you're a GM in that situation, what can you even do? And to that I say, if it wasn’t Benning and co. doing the job of "staying competitive" it would've been someone else in that seat at that time doing exactly the same thing with exactly the same blueprint and demands on the table.

Am I defending Benning and his management squad? Perhaps. I think they are, for the most part, scapegoats, just making the best of a tough situation.
Of course we can discuss all the "bad" moves. But how we judge a particular move during that time for the most part doesn't even matter. We must first ask, was that move means to an ends in terms stop gap fillers to be competitive in now? Or was it a perceived future piece to build around moving forward. Each decision is largely context dependant on the demands/needs being filled in a particular way. Even though the common criticisms tend to be strictly focused on future results and nothing but.

Lest we forget, Benning and co. lasted 8 years. By this we can reasonably deduce that their work kept the dollars and viewership levels to an adequate level for ownership. They did the best they could to balance the needs of the present and the needs of the future.

Of course it's easy to blame the ownership group putting the needs of the business above longer term gains that could otherwise be achieved at a faster rate... IN THEORY. Just as a tank rebuild always sounds great in theory.
But it was simply never a realistic scenario in this market-- never was and probably never will be. And I bet if you asked Francesco directly even he personally would've preferred to take a different approach.

But... business is business.

Am I defending the billionaires at the helm? Not so much. But criticizing their chosen path with some ideal in mind is sure easy for us to say... especially considering we have zero financial stake in the business. And if we did I wonder if we'd feel the same way about how things played out. Perspective is everything.

TL;DR: Ownership throwing hundreds of millions of potential dollars in the garbage to take the ideal path-- maximizing every asset/opportunity to get to a destination potentially faster for longer was never a realistic expectation.

Ownership chose to rebuild slowly over time to continue making money (as much as they could) for the duration-- chipping away building a new young core along the way. As Francesco Aquilini once stated "A rebuild is a long, slow, gradual process" and boy don't we know it.

Dude!!! Stop that! WTF? Logical thinking???  THAT sir, is ridiculous, and how dare you not listen to our local idiots in the media, I meant what were you thinking? 

 Seriously though, most on the CDC were too stupid or lazy to think for themselves or do any critical analysis but simply follow along with brains in neutral or maybe reverse but I'll say in neutral and give the benefit of the doubt. 

 It was hardly like Benning got given a clean slate of a roster that was good and a producing farm and a glut of draft picks to start his gig here but yet again people fail to remember things like that and go with the status quo of mindless morons who didn't remember either. 

 Honestly every time JT Miller scores a goal or a assist, it just cements it even more, twits couldn't even be bothered to see who we were getting in reality, not fantasy land, JT played on the top Tampa line with Stamkos from time to time and looked good doing it, and the price we got him for was a steal especially for his first few seasons before a well deserved hefty raise kicked in. 

 To this day, I still believe we have the worst fans and media in the entire league hands down and this topic exactly the way you said it simply reminded me of it, and I'm hardly the only one who wasn't too busy reading and believing the local idiocy to think for myself and not end up fooled and ended up looking like a fool.

Why people continue to listen to those stupid schmucks, and actually think for themselves is beyond me BUT that's on them, maybe, just maybe, one day those folks will stop believing everything they hear and read out of the media like it's the hockey gospel of truth.. 

Anyway, Jimbo and co. made mistakes here and there sure but what GM hasn't like you pointed out, well done sir! 

Edited December 12, 2023 by iceman1964

[LillStrimma]

55 minutes ago, iceman1964 said:

Dude!!! Stop that! WTF? Logical thinking???  THAT sir, is ridiculous, and how dare you not listen to our local idiots in the media, I meant what were you thinking? 

 Seriously though, most on the CDC were too stupid or lazy to think for themselves or do any critical analysis but simply follow along with brains in neutral or maybe reverse but I'll say in neutral and give the benefit of the doubt. 

 It was hardly like Benning got given a clean slate of a roster that was good and a producing farm and a glut of draft picks to start his gig here but yet again people fail to remember things like that and go with the status quo of mindless morons who didn't remember either. 

 Honestly every time JT Miller scores a goal or a assist, it just cements it even more, twits couldn't even be bothered to see who we were getting in reality, not fantasy land, JT played on the top Tampa line with Stamkos from time to time and looked good doing it, and the price we got him for was a steal especially for his first few seasons before a well deserved hefty raise kicked in. 

 To this day, I still believe we have the worst fans and media in the entire league hands down and this topic exactly the way you said it simply reminded me of it, and I'm hardly the only one who wasn't too busy reading and believing the local idiocy to think for myself and not end up fooled and ended up looking like a fool.

Why people continue to listen to those stupid schmucks, and actually think for themselves is beyond me BUT that's on them, maybe, just maybe, one day those folks will stop believing everything they hear and read out of the media like it's the hockey gospel of truth.. 

Anyway, Jimbo and co. made mistakes here and there sure but what GM hasn't like you pointed out, well done sir! 

I haven’t read the media you refer to… I judged the GM as a GM.

PA has shown how a GM should be and Benning was far off that point.

 

Benning made a home run with Miller but Miller needed a coach he could respect.

Green wasn’t up to that task.

 

Aren’t you happy now with a big D? As I recall it you wanted the Canucks to be bigger and tougher.
PA managed to do what Benning failed with in less than two years.

 

 

 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, iceman1964 said:

Dude!!! Stop that! WTF? Logical thinking???  THAT sir, is ridiculous, and how dare you not listen to our local idiots in the media, I meant what were you thinking? 

 Seriously though, most on the CDC were too stupid or lazy to think for themselves or do any critical analysis but simply follow along with brains in neutral or maybe reverse but I'll say in neutral and give the benefit of the doubt. 

 It was hardly like Benning got given a clean slate of a roster that was good and a producing farm and a glut of draft picks to start his gig here but yet again people fail to remember things like that and go with the status quo of mindless morons who didn't remember either. 

 Honestly every time JT Miller scores a goal or a assist, it just cements it even more, twits couldn't even be bothered to see who we were getting in reality, not fantasy land, JT played on the top Tampa line with Stamkos from time to time and looked good doing it, and the price we got him for was a steal especially for his first few seasons before a well deserved hefty raise kicked in. 

 To this day, I still believe we have the worst fans and media in the entire league hands down and this topic exactly the way you said it simply reminded me of it, and I'm hardly the only one who wasn't too busy reading and believing the local idiocy to think for myself and not end up fooled and ended up looking like a fool.

Why people continue to listen to those stupid schmucks, and actually think for themselves is beyond me BUT that's on them, maybe, just maybe, one day those folks will stop believing everything they hear and read out of the media like it's the hockey gospel of truth.. 

Anyway, Jimbo and co. made mistakes here and there sure but what GM hasn't like you pointed out, well done sir! 

It appears this whole article is about staying competitive while rebuilding and that Benning was successful doing that. But we weren’t competitive. We were awful. 
It’s inarguable fact. Our most successful GM was Gillis. When he went to ownership and recommended to rebuild he got fired. That was the owner’s first mistake. Why in the heck did he fire the most successful GM we’ve ever had? Then our owner made his next mistake in hiring Benning. Then the dark ages came. Fans left the club in droves. While other clubs increased in value ours dropped. 
Finally our owner fired Benning and hired competent management again. Allvin is a lot like Gillis. Smart and has a plan. Benning had no plan. Suggesting he did is moronic. 

[Jaimito]

 

 

 

[iceman1964]

4 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

I haven’t read the media you refer to… I judged the GM as a GM.

PA has shown how a GM should be and Benning was far off that point.

 

Benning made a home run with Miller but Miller needed a coach he could respect.

Green wasn’t up to that task.

 

Aren’t you happy now with a big D? As I recall it you wanted the Canucks to be bigger and tougher.
PA managed to do what Benning failed with in less than two years.

 

 

 

Yes of course I did, although there wasn't much available at the time, the Miller thing, yeah good point, but I saw the talent in him playing in Tampa, I was super stoked when he showed up! And then I read all the bullshit in the media, I was shocked actually. 

All I could do was shake my head and wait for a ton of people to eat a LOT of crow.. and they did!  Lmao! 

[iceman1964]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

It appears this whole article is about staying competitive while rebuilding and that Benning was successful doing that. But we weren’t competitive. We were awful. 
It’s inarguable fact. Our most successful GM was Gillis. When he went to ownership and recommended to rebuild he got fired. That was the owner’s first mistake. Why in the heck did he fire the most successful GM we’ve ever had? Then our owner made his next mistake in hiring Benning. Then the dark ages came. Fans left the club in droves. While other clubs increased in value ours dropped. 
Finally our owner fired Benning and hired competent management again. Allvin is a lot like Gillis. Smart and has a plan. Benning had no plan. Suggesting he did is moronic. 

Tell me what you would have done instead Alf?  Overridden the collective agreements and contract law and cleared out the team and re-started everything that year? Think about where we were, yes I agree agree about Gillis but we didn't have depth, we traded away our depth to get that roster, got down to the wire, Hammer went down, Eddie and Tanev were clearly not anywhere near 100% and no one to step in..  we stayed healthy long enough to get there BUT then it hit and end of story... Same as in 94..  nothing has changed, but it's not new.. until we have a good roster with depth, Mr Stanley isn't coming anywhere near Vancouver anytime soon.

[iceman1964]

5 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

I haven’t read the media you refer to… I judged the GM as a GM.

PA has shown how a GM should be and Benning was far off that point.

 

Benning made a home run with Miller but Miller needed a coach he could respect.

Green wasn’t up to that task.

 

Aren’t you happy now with a big D? As I recall it you wanted the Canucks to be bigger and tougher.
PA managed to do what Benning failed with in less than two years.

 

 

 

Well Benning was hardly handed a good starting core like PA was, JB was handed a broken team with a good portion of locked in long term contracts and no farm and no picks and no prospects in the system, tell me what you would have done in his place and be specific, I've yet to hear anything from anyone when I've posed that question over the years...

No GM could have fixed that team in a short period of time, anyone who thinks it could have been done is delusional at best... Why? Tell me what GM could get around contract law and that's just the start of it. 

Well haven't you read anything in the media in the past few years? Example for you, in the last 5 years, it's been all about signing more and more forwards and zero about the D, which was always my gripe, and many others in the CDC actually, and it was as plain as day, but the media insisted on more forwards. 

How would that helped out cause exactly? And btw, it's like going to a car lot and looking for a truck, you can only buy what's available, but on top of that, players need to actually want to go to wherever it is their wanted. 

 Personally, I'd have to be overpaid to play in Vancouver too, same as most other canadian smaller market cities less T.O. but we have the worst fans ever. 

Lots will jump up and down to make noise when it comes to talking about the canucks, go to a game and until we score, it's like going to a library.

We cheer when our team scores, better fans make noise to pump their team up to score, if your old enough to remember the Montreal forum, you could hear and feel the buzz even before puck drop, here? Lmao! Not even close!!

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by iceman1964

[Jaimito]

Q&A: Jim Rutherford on Canucks' strong start, Pettersson's next contract

 

VANCOUVER — Time flies when you’re having fun. Or even when you’re not.

Jim Rutherford said being president of a National Hockey League team is not a fun job, but can be an enjoyable one, a rewarding one. After a tumultuous first season and a half in charge of the Vancouver Canucks, when the 74-year-old Hall-of-Famer oversaw the complete reconstruction of the hockey operations department and, last winter, a messy coaching change, Rutherford has been mostly quiet this season as his surprising team built an 18-9-1 start.

In his only press conference, on the eve of training camp, Rutherford said the Canucks could be a playoff team "if everything goes right." Most things have, but not everything. But as the Tampa Bay Lightning visit Rogers Arena on Tuesday night, the Canucks sure look like a playoff team.

It was two years ago this week that Rutherford agreed to come out of retirement after a five-hour visit to his home in Raleigh, N.C., by Canucks owner Francesco Aquilini. He accepted a two-and-half-year contract to rebuild the team, and with two-thirds of this season remaining, the Canucks have undergone a remarkable transformation.

Not fun, Rutherford said. But enjoyable enough that he plans to keep going. In a sitdown interview with Sportsnet, he spoke about the last two years and this season.

 

VANCOUVER — Time flies when you’re having fun. Or even when you’re not.

Jim Rutherford said being president of a National Hockey League team is not a fun job, but can be an enjoyable one, a rewarding one. After a tumultuous first season and a half in charge of the Vancouver Canucks, when the 74-year-old Hall-of-Famer oversaw the complete reconstruction of the hockey operations department and, last winter, a messy coaching change, Rutherford has been mostly quiet this season as his surprising team built an 18-9-1 start.

In his only press conference, on the eve of training camp, Rutherford said the Canucks could be a playoff team "if everything goes right." Most things have, but not everything. But as the Tampa Bay Lightning visit Rogers Arena on Tuesday night, the Canucks sure look like a playoff team.

It was two years ago this week that Rutherford agreed to come out of retirement after a five-hour visit to his home in Raleigh, N.C., by Canucks owner Francesco Aquilini. He accepted a two-and-half-year contract to rebuild the team, and with two-thirds of this season remaining, the Canucks have undergone a remarkable transformation.

Not fun, Rutherford said. But enjoyable enough that he plans to keep going. In a sitdown interview with Sportsnet, he spoke about the last two years and this season.

 

Sportsnet: How would you characterize the last two years?

Jim Rutherford: Well, nothing surprises me because, of course, I've been around a long time. I've seen a lot of things. Obviously, we dealt with some things that we weren't expecting and we ended up making a lot of changes within hockey operations. Those are not comfortable. You know, you're dealing with people's lives and good people. But in order to make the changes and get everybody on the same path, that was something we had to do. So that was difficult. But the time has gone by pretty quick.

SN: Have you talked to your boss about a new contract?

JR: Is that my wife or son or daughter? Oh, my owner. We don't view each other as bosses, but we do make decisions as a family, so that's important. Francesco and I, we communicate on a regular basis. So, yeah, we've had some conversations about it.

SN: You hired general manager Patrik Allvin the month after you arrived, then 12 months later hired Rick Tocchet as coach. Along the way you built a new hockey-ops department. How much of the team’s turnaround is due to organizational alignment?

JR: You have to have alignment in your hockey operations, but alignment doesn't mean (you can't have) different ideas or long debates about different things that people don't agree on. That's really important. But as far as alignment, from ownership, to Patrik, to the coaches, to the players, to player development and scouting and everything else, our alignment is very strong.

SN: Do you wish you’d achieved it sooner?

JR: Well, yes. That's an obvious answer. But based on the circumstances... Francesco had hired Bruce (Boudreau) just prior to me coming. But he did call me about him. Bruce was the right guy at that point in time to get the players motivated, and get them back on track. And he did that.

 

SN: Your new coach appears to have established the accountability and standards you wanted. Do you worry Tocchet has been too honest at times with criticism of his team and individual players, including Andrei Kuzmenko recently?

JR: Rick is consistent with his constructive criticism. He doesn't just pick a lower-end guy, for example. It's consistent with how he feels at the time, and I think that's fair to the players. He makes the players accountable, his expectations are high, and I really like the way he works.

SN: Were you trying to undersell your team or mute expectations when you said in September that everything had to go right for the Canucks to make the playoffs?

JR: We're only partway into the season. This is a marathon race — a season schedule. I'll say the same thing: everything has to go right. But the biggest thing we've accomplished to this point is the coach has put a plan in place, the players have worked hard and bought into it, and now they've proven to themselves what they can do.

SN: Have the last two months accelerated your plans to win? Are you closer to a winning window than you thought you would be?

JR: We’re closer. But if you remember the first press conference when I came here, I said there's players here that are better than people think, and probably a lot better than they think. And once we got to the point that our plan was put in place and the system was put in place, and the players bought into it and realized playing a certain way they could have success, you saw how good these players could be. I actually view the window as just starting to open up because our top players are playing the way they're capable of. But we now also have a good pipeline of players coming, and if those players hit the way we think they're going to hit here in the next couple of years, and you have Quinn Hughes (24) and Elias Pettersson (25) at the age they are, and I believe J.T. Miller (30) is going to be a good player for a long time, and we have Thatcher Demko (28) at a good age, that window could actually open bigger.

 

SN: Is Elias Pettersson’s price going up by the month?

JR: I don't know the answer to that.

SN: Elliotte Friedman reported that your GM sat down with Pettersson during a recent road trip, just to check in. Has there been any progress in contract negotiations since Pettersson declared before the season that he wanted to wait before re-signing?

JR: I feel positive about the situation. That's about all I can say at this point.

SN: So you think Pettersson wants to stay with the Canucks?

JR: We have not had any indication otherwise.

SN: Do you also feel positive about Kuzmenko, who is struggling to adapt to meet Tocchet's demands?

JR: I'm concerned only to the point that now he's feeling the pressure. And when you feel the pressure and you start pushing, squeezing the stick harder and passing when you should be shooting and vice versa, you get a little bit concerned. I believe in the staff we have and they will continue to work with him. He's a good player. He is a capable player. Is he a guy that's going to score 40 goals again? Maybe not. But certainly the way he plays, you should be able to project him at 25.

SN: There is growing trade speculation about Kuzmenko. Will you be patient and let him work through his problems in Vancouver?

JR: Well, we'll keep an open mind. I don't want to just lock ourselves into one answer. But we need to continue to try to help.

SN: There’s the old saying that nobody bats 1,000. But you bought out Oliver Ekman-Larsson in the summer and reinvested the savings in free agents Ian Cole, Carson Soucy, Teddy Blueger and Pius Suter. You traded Tanner Pearson for Casey DeSmith, a fifth-round pick for Sam Lafferty, and offloaded Anthony Beauvillier so you could add Nikita Zadorov. Isn’t that close to batting 1,000?

JR: You never bat a 1,000. If you're not making mistakes, you're not being aggressive enough to do your job. But make sure you limit your mistakes, make good moves, and when you make your mistakes, try not to make them over and over again. We've been fairly patient. The Ekman-Larsson buyout was a tough decision because we recognize he's a good player. But at what we had to pay him this year and next year, the investment didn't make sense. And if we didn't buy him out, we wouldn't have been able to do some of the things we did to change the team. And if we'd come back with the same team, well, it would have been the same team.

SN: Who deserves the credit for the home runs on DeSmith and Lafferty?

JR: It's a process. We want the pro scouts to identify players. And Patrik and I are identifying players on a daily basis. And then when those players are identified, it gets run through analytics. And then we go to the pro scouting reports. And then, of course, a big part is: What do they make? How do they fit into the cap? And where are they going to fit into the team? You know, we waited a long time on Suter because at one point in time, I think he was maybe looking for $3 million (per season). We waited and waited until the time that number came down (to $1.6 million for this season and next) and it fit for us. So it's a little game of chess, a little game of poker you're playing, hoping nobody else jumps in. Ultimately, Patrik's got to make a decision.

SN: You added a reliable defenceman in Zadorov. Do you still need to add another?

JR: Well, you can never have enough defencemen. You can ask every team that. I will say that we're really pleased with the development of (Noah) Juulsen. Same with any position, we're going to keep looking to see if there's anywhere that we can upgrade.

SN: Will you be aggressive before the trade deadline?

JR: We'll see how the team plays and how everybody plays and where our needs are. I don't know if 'aggressive' is the right word. But we'll continue to look at anywhere we can improve the team.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Jaimito

[DSVII]

8 hours ago, iceman1964 said:

 

 To this day, I still believe we have the worst fans and media in the entire league hands down and this topic exactly the way you said it simply reminded me of it, and I'm hardly the only one who wasn't too busy reading and believing the local idiocy to think for myself and not end up fooled and ended up looking like a fool.

 

 

Having lived in Toronto during the Phil Kessel era, I'll heavily disagree with you there. Steve Simmonds and Damien Cox make Thomas Drance and Dhaliwal look like Walter Cronkite. As for the fans, the vitriol and pressure is another level. I still remember when James Reimer got 300 + death threats for blowing Game 7 in 2013. It's a crazy market there.

 

I'll also take it you never watched a sports team in Philly/Oakland/Boston/New York?

 

I'd feel much safer walking into Rogers arena with a Bruins jersey than anywhere in New England/Boston with Yankees/Giants gear.

 

Nucks fans and media, while at times irritating, are mild and tame in comparison.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by DSVII

[LillStrimma]

3 hours ago, iceman1964 said:

Well Benning was hardly handed a good starting core like PA was, JB was handed a broken team with a good portion of locked in long term contracts and no farm and no picks and no prospects in the system, tell me what you would have done in his place and be specific, I've yet to hear anything from anyone when I've posed that question over the years...

No GM could have fixed that team in a short period of time, anyone who thinks it could have been done is delusional at best... Why? Tell me what GM could get around contract law and that's just the start of it. 

Well haven't you read anything in the media in the past few years? Example for you, in the last 5 years, it's been all about signing more and more forwards and zero about the D, which was always my gripe, and many others in the CDC actually, and it was as plain as day, but the media insisted on more forwards. 

How would that helped out cause exactly? And btw, it's like going to a car lot and looking for a truck, you can only buy what's available, but on top of that, players need to actually want to go to wherever it is their wanted. 

 Personally, I'd have to be overpaid to play in Vancouver too, same as most other canadian smaller market cities less T.O. but we have the worst fans ever. 

Lots will jump up and down to make noise when it comes to talking about the canucks, go to a game and until we score, it's like going to a library.

We cheer when our team scores, better fans make noise to pump their team up to score, if your old enough to remember the Montreal forum, you could hear and feel the buzz even before puck drop, here? Lmao! Not even close!!

 

 

Well, first, Benning assembled a lot of short/small players.

Second, he paid too much for the vets

Third, he used every little cap space he had when he should have left a fair bit of it for flexible trades in multiple directions.

Here Benning screwed himself.

 

Here in Sweden Benning isn’t especially interesting. So at least not me haven’t read about the forwards contra D.

We have aleays tried to get more D-players but none seem to fit the team. 
Tanev should ha e stayed but here Bennings lack of cap space screwed him as I said earlier.

 

PA has really showed what you can do with a bit of cap flexibility.

[iceman1964]

5 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

Well, first, Benning assembled a lot of short/small players.

Second, he paid too much for the vets

Third, he used every little cap space he had when he should have left a fair bit of it for flexible trades in multiple directions.

Here Benning screwed himself.

 

Here in Sweden Benning isn’t especially interesting. So at least not me haven’t read about the forwards contra D.

We have aleays tried to get more D-players but none seem to fit the team. 
Tanev should ha e stayed but here Bennings lack of cap space screwed him as I said earlier.

 

PA has really showed what you can do with a bit of cap flexibility.

And what can be done without a aging core and zero depth 

[iceman1964]

6 hours ago, DSVII said:

 

Having lived in Toronto during the Phil Kessel era, I'll heavily disagree with you there. Steve Simmonds and Damien Cox make Thomas Drance and Dhaliwal look like Walter Cronkite. As for the fans, the vitriol and pressure is another level. I still remember when James Reimer got 300 + death threats for blowing Game 7 in 2013. It's a crazy market there.

 

I'll also take it you never watched a sports team in Philly/Oakland/Boston/New York?

 

I'd feel much safer walking into Rogers arena with a Bruins jersey than anywhere in New England/Boston with Yankees/Giants gear.

 

Nucks fans and media, while at times irritating, are mild and tame in comparison.

 

 

Oh I wasn't talking about safety, stupidity more like it and all it takes is a bit of thinking for oneself instead of relying on the media for it because you know how that goes.

 It would be just like believing what the government says all the time, you KNOW it's bullshit but lots of folks believe it anyway.

[conquestofbaguettes]

On 12/11/2023 at 5:53 PM, LillStrimma said:

Ok, so you think I'm alone in my opinion? 
You got really got response to your bs and still you answer my futile post... Get real.

 

Do you only count how many posts you trollish post generate? 

 

I'm illuminating the fact there's much  more to look at to understand the underlying decision making process in a business.  Don't like it? Too bad.

 

You and others can have all the opinions you want. Doesn't make them accurate accounts of the facts though. Mostly surface level garbo used to continue scapegoating from what I can see.

Edited December 13, 2023 by conquestofbaguettes

[conquestofbaguettes]

15 hours ago, iceman1964 said:

Dude!!! Stop that! WTF? Logical thinking???  THAT sir, is ridiculous, and how dare you not listen to our local idiots in the media, I meant what were you thinking? 

 Seriously though, most on the CDC were too stupid or lazy to think for themselves or do any critical analysis but simply follow along with brains in neutral or maybe reverse but I'll say in neutral and give the benefit of the doubt. 

 It was hardly like Benning got given a clean slate of a roster that was good and a producing farm and a glut of draft picks to start his gig here but yet again people fail to remember things like that and go with the status quo of mindless morons who didn't remember either. 

 Honestly every time JT Miller scores a goal or a assist, it just cements it even more, twits couldn't even be bothered to see who we were getting in reality, not fantasy land, JT played on the top Tampa line with Stamkos from time to time and looked good doing it, and the price we got him for was a steal especially for his first few seasons before a well deserved hefty raise kicked in. 

 To this day, I still believe we have the worst fans and media in the entire league hands down and this topic exactly the way you said it simply reminded me of it, and I'm hardly the only one who wasn't too busy reading and believing the local idiocy to think for myself and not end up fooled and ended up looking like a fool.

Why people continue to listen to those stupid schmucks, and actually think for themselves is beyond me BUT that's on them, maybe, just maybe, one day those folks will stop believing everything they hear and read out of the media like it's the hockey gospel of truth.. 

Anyway, Jimbo and co. made mistakes here and there sure but what GM hasn't like you pointed out, well done sir! 

 

Thanks.  I'm glad someone else around appreciates what I'm saying. : )

[iceman1964]

5 minutes ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

Thanks.  I'm glad someone else around appreciates what I'm saying. : )

Well it's true, the haters might not like it but whatever! 

[conquestofbaguettes]

14 hours ago, Alflives said:

But we weren’t competitive

"Competitive" seems to be the point of contention here.

 

Of course they sucked! But they sucked a bit less than they otherwise would have icing a total ahl squad with rookies getting shitkicked.

 

Losing 6-1 with no chance of winning is a lot different than losing 4-3 in terms of the on ice product.

 

That's the whole underlying reason they did what they did with signing vets, nhl calibre placeholders, spent to the cap year after year. It keeps more asses in seats and eyeballs on tvs than they otherwise would have at that time.

 

Competitive product.

 

[conquestofbaguettes]

14 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

Miller needed a coach he could respect.

Green wasn’t up to that task.

 

Garbage conjecture.

 

Show me the quote where Miller even  hints at anything of the sort.  Never happened.

[Ballisticsports]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:40 AM, Ballisticsports said:

 

Funny , You're whole posting is based on conjecture, assumptions and opinions of what FA wants and behaves

 

 

On 11/27/2023 at 10:30 PM, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

 

I never said it wasn't! Lol The difference here is I'm not claiming to know with some 'beyond the shadow of a doubt' shit that others are.

 

Way way too many other things to look at and ponder before making such claims.

But what I do know is that this "they just dumb" narrative contains very little actual fact to back it up.  And this is coming from someone that would have preferred they rebuild properly as well.

 

 

Lol

Is this thread still being fed to the king of conjecture?

Anything posted, he ignores while adding conjecture and no substance, so what is the point of this ?

This whole thing reminds me of a old Monty Python skit

 

[conquestofbaguettes]

51 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

 

Lol

Is this thread still being fed to the king of conjecture?

Anything posted, he ignores while adding conjecture and no substance, so what is the point of this ?

This whole thing reminds me of a old Monty Python skit

 

 

Most the shit I've read from you guys is parroting talking heads, media members, and fan theories; Third party conjecture mistakenly held as some universal truth and few primary sources to back them up. That shit doesn't fly with me, thanks.

 

I don't pretend to have all the answers here. I don't pretend to know for certain if this or that is absolutely the case or for what reason.  But that doesn't mean we can act like people exist in a vacuum with 100% free will to do anything or everything they always want. Not you, not me, and certainly not Jim Benning given the circumstances.

 

But what gets me here you guys act like you know. Act like you have all the answers and know what's true without a shadow of a doubt...  all the while only discussing a small aspect of the situation. It's pretty funny.

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by conquestofbaguettes

[filthy animal]

16 hours ago, iceman1964 said:

Tell me what you would have done instead Alf?  Overridden the collective agreements and contract law and cleared out the team and re-started everything that year? Think about where we were, yes I agree agree about Gillis but we didn't have depth, we traded away our depth to get that roster, got down to the wire, Hammer went down, Eddie and Tanev were clearly not anywhere near 100% and no one to step in..  we stayed healthy long enough to get there BUT then it hit and end of story... Same as in 94..  nothing has changed, but it's not new.. until we have a good roster with depth, Mr Stanley isn't coming anywhere near Vancouver anytime soon.

 

Define this depth you keep yapping about. You want them to be 10 deep in all star D-men? Evgeni Malkin playing on the 4th line? Miro Heiskenen playing bottom pairing?

[filthy animal]

22 hours ago, iceman1964 said:

Dude!!! Stop that! WTF? Logical thinking???  THAT sir, is ridiculous, and how dare you not listen to our local idiots in the media, I meant what were you thinking? 

 Seriously though, most on the CDC were too stupid or lazy to think for themselves or do any critical analysis but simply follow along with brains in neutral or maybe reverse but I'll say in neutral and give the benefit of the doubt. 

 It was hardly like Benning got given a clean slate of a roster that was good and a producing farm and a glut of draft picks to start his gig here but yet again people fail to remember things like that and go with the status quo of mindless morons who didn't remember either. 

 Honestly every time JT Miller scores a goal or a assist, it just cements it even more, twits couldn't even be bothered to see who we were getting in reality, not fantasy land, JT played on the top Tampa line with Stamkos from time to time and looked good doing it, and the price we got him for was a steal especially for his first few seasons before a well deserved hefty raise kicked in. 

 To this day, I still believe we have the worst fans and media in the entire league hands down and this topic exactly the way you said it simply reminded me of it, and I'm hardly the only one who wasn't too busy reading and believing the local idiocy to think for myself and not end up fooled and ended up looking like a fool.

Why people continue to listen to those stupid schmucks, and actually think for themselves is beyond me BUT that's on them, maybe, just maybe, one day those folks will stop believing everything they hear and read out of the media like it's the hockey gospel of truth.. 

Anyway, Jimbo and co. made mistakes here and there sure but what GM hasn't like you pointed out, well done sir! 

 

Seriously? You're effing 60. Try talking like one rather than arguing like a 12 year old school girl

[iceman1964]

1 hour ago, filthy animal said:

 

Define this depth you keep yapping about. You want them to be 10 deep in all star D-men? Evgeni Malkin playing on the 4th line? Miro Heiskenen playing bottom pairing?

Really? Let me spell it out for you, case in point if your old enough to remember the old Detroit powerhouse team, if a injury happened they could bring someone up from the farm that had the same systems so players developing to fit in next to seamlessly and not miss a beat and actually do well, not go on a losing streak and miss the playoffs.. I guess I should have specified developed "farm depth" with younger players already pushing hard for roster spots with the big club.

[iceman1964]

1 hour ago, filthy animal said:

 

Seriously? You're effing 60. Try talking like one rather than arguing like a 12 year old school girl

Seems to me your the one acting like a school girl, that was meant to be funny and it was but I guess you didn't get it! 

And the depth thing? Honestly.. you couldn't figure that out on your own?  

I guess stupid really can't be fixed, oh well...  

Edited December 13, 2023 by iceman1964

[LillStrimma]

19 hours ago, iceman1964 said:

And what can be done without a aging core and zero depth 

You can still get cheap players, tough players and so on… Benning was a failure and I truly believe you should stop defend him.

The ageing core etc is something you can build around.