[PROPOSAL] Let's complete the defence and go for the cup

[Elias Pettersson]

To Vancouver:

Nikita Zadorov (50% retention)

Chris Tanev     (50% retention)

Adam Ruzicka

 

To Calgary:

Anthony Beauvillier

Nils Hoglander

Noah Juulsen

2024 1st round pick

 

Hughes        Hronek

Zadorov       Tanev

Cole             Myers

Soucy          Friedman

 

That is a Stanley Cup winning defence.  We are 8 deep and can sustain injuries too.  We now have completed our defence and we can go for the cup...

[Jeremy Hronek]

44 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

To Vancouver:

Nikita Zadorov (50% retention)

Chris Tanev     (50% retention)

Adam Ruzicka

 

To Calgary:

Anthony Beauvillier

Nils Hoglander

Noah Juulsen

2024 1st round pick

 

Hughes        Hronek

Zadorov       Tanev

Cole             Myers

Soucy          Friedman

 

That is a Stanley Cup winning defence.  We are 8 deep and can sustain injuries too.  We now have completed our defence and we can go for the cup...

 

Not a fan of this proposal.

 

For one thing, we'd be able to sign Chris Tanev for absolutely free in this off-season (Myers + Beauvillier will come off the books). 

 

Secondly, I realize that injuries occur throughout the season but you'd basically be paying Soucy three million dollars to be a 7th defenseman?   

 

Soucy has been decent for us and doesn't deserve to be treated like that.  That's the type of move that could discourage free agents from wanting to sign here (i.e. sign someone long term and then put them in the press box for no good reason).  

 

Juulsen has about as much value as my poo with corn in it and so I don't see why Calgary takes him (other than the fact that he has low cost).   

 

I don't like the idea of trading assets to go for it this year.  With Myers and Beau off the books next year + cap going up, the Canucks might have an even better opportunity to go for it next season.   

 

I think this season is akin to our 2008-2009 season (personally, I think our record is a bit inflated at this point).  However, I can see next year and beyond being this core's equivalent to its 2010-2012 elite window.  Be patient would be my mantra for this year.  Let the Canucks make the playoffs and win a round.  Then, take the next step next year.  Be consistent and progressive in building.  

 

When Mike Gillis took over as the GM in (2008?) or whenever it was, ownership told Gillis to be aggressive in terms of building a winner.  And for the short term, the plan was brilliant.  Our 2008-2013 era was probably the greatest Canucks window of all-time, with 2010-2012 being the peak. Unfortunately, we saw what happened to this team from 2013-2023.  My point being this - do you want to build *another* team that is good for 4-5 years followed by another ten years of struggle? (give or take 1-2 outlier seasons), or, do you want to build a consistently good team for the long term? (i.e. Pittsburgh, Boston, Carolina, etc.).  

 

Let's keep Hoglander, 2024 1st, and the great Noah Juulsen (unless we are offered a 7th round pick and dog shit in exchange of course ;-)).

 

Signing Ethan Bear *for free* should give us the necessary defensive depth (a good point you raised in your post btw).  

Edited November 17, 2023 by Jeremy Hronek

[DownUndaCanuck]

Don't like Soucy as a 7th man, he's paid too much and too good for that. Don't mind Ruzicka but he just brings size, not much else, so would probably be playing wing and probably on the bottom line. Hoglander and the 1st is far too much to give up for a couple of rentals.

 

Beauvillier + maybe our 3rd best defensive prospect for Zadorov should do the job. They can take Juulsen too if they really want. I don't think his value is that high, he's just requested a trade and contract expires soon. 

 

The most I'd give up is Beau + prospect + 2nd (way down the line)

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

To Vancouver:

Nikita Zadorov (50% retention)

Chris Tanev     (50% retention)

Adam Ruzicka

 

To Calgary:

Anthony Beauvillier

Nils Hoglander

Noah Juulsen

2024 1st round pick

 

Hughes        Hronek

Zadorov       Tanev

Cole             Myers

Soucy          Friedman

 

That is a Stanley Cup winning defence.  We are 8 deep and can sustain injuries too.  We now have completed our defence and we can go for the cup...

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Not a fan of this proposal.

 

For one thing, we'd be able to sign Chris Tanev for absolutely free in this off-season (Myers + Beauvillier will come off the books). 

 

Secondly, I realize that injuries occur throughout the season but you'd basically be paying Soucy three million dollars to be a 7th defenseman?   

 

Soucy has been decent for us and doesn't deserve to be treated like that.  That's the type of move that could discourage free agents from wanting to sign here (i.e. sign someone long term and then put them in the press box for no good reason).  

 

Juulsen has about as much value as my poo with corn in it and so I don't see why Calgary takes him (other than the fact that he has low cost).   

 

I don't like the idea of trading assets to go for it this year.  With Myers and Beau off the books next year + cap going up, the Canucks might have an even better opportunity to go for it next season.   

 

I think this season is akin to our 2008-2009 season (personally, I think our record is a bit inflated at this point).  However, I can see next year and beyond being this core's equivalent to its 2010-2012 elite window.  Be patient would be my mantra for this year.  Let the Canucks make the playoffs and win a round.  Then, take the next step next year.  Be consistent and progressive in building.  

 

When Mike Gillis took over as the GM in (2008?) or whenever it was, ownership told Gillis to be aggressive in terms of building a winner.  And for the short term, the plan was brilliant.  Our 2008-2013 era was probably the greatest Canucks window of all-time, with 2010-2012 being the peak. Unfortunately, we saw what happened to this team from 2013-2023.  My point being this - do you want to build *another* team that is good for 4-5 years followed by another ten years of struggle? (give or take 1-2 outlier seasons), or, do you want to build a consistently good team for the long term? (i.e. Pittsburgh, Boston, Carolina, etc.).  

 

Let's keep Hoglander, 2024 1st, and the great Noah Juulsen (unless we are offered a 7th round pick and dog shit in exchange of course ;-)).

 

Signing Ethan Bear *for free* should give us the necessary defensive depth (a good point you raised in your post btw).  

Don't think you can compare these two teams for one.   And what did MG decide to do as soon as he took over?   Offer Sundin close to the max, all that cap Nonis was waiting to clear, was offered to a once great but not so great anymore player (2 years x 10 million!).    Yikes not exactly in tune with winning a cup over a short period was it, given that team would have, well at best maybe been a little better then mediocre, and no 2011.    

 

Thankfully that never happened and things worked out.  MG also didn't re-sign Mitchell and instead spent a first for Ballard and wasted cap on Booth (both were bought out).    

 

This teams cap "window" is most obviously QHs current deal and Demko's.    Plus they have Miller playing like a champ.   You don't wait on that your make it work.     NYR in 94 had the best regular season team two years in a row - go check out what they did to create a playoff team.  It was pretty sick.  A dozen or so trades.    If you think our window is in 3-4 years then that's a one year, maybe two at most.   Absolutely they should be considering trading this years first and next years as well.   If they don't, we are likely screwed.     Will have to wait awhile before those later first rounders become anything.    Like 3-4 years!   And hope they become well a Brock Boeser.   Or a Hronek. 

 

The team can still sell the farm later and regain all those picks if things don't work out. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Don't like Soucy as a 7th man, he's paid too much and too good for that. Don't mind Ruzicka but he just brings size, not much else, so would probably be playing wing and probably on the bottom line. Hoglander and the 1st is far too much to give up for a couple of rentals.

 

Beauvillier + maybe our 3rd best defensive prospect for Zadorov should do the job. They can take Juulsen too if they really want. I don't think his value is that high, he's just requested a trade and contract expires soon. 

 

The most I'd give up is Beau + prospect + 2nd (way down the line)

He's not the 7th man.   He'd rotate in and out, and share that with whomever.   And for sure you can bet someone is going down during the season.   And in the playoffs. 

 

Edit:  Zadarov without any cap going back is worth a late first or a second and b prospect as a rental, 50% retained.  Beau is a massive cap dump for us right now.    Part of the cost of Horvat.   50% retained we are still paying to move him. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

As for the OP.   We absolutely should be considering trading our first.   To acquire a younger non UFA, cost controlled underplayed 4/5 D.  Whom that is I have no idea.    Don't think we should be going in all-in this season, but targeting next season for a possible cup run.    Team needs a 3C that can move up, and a top four D under contract next season already.    That D can start solidifying the second pairing.    Next season if things work out, then we can do rentals. 

 

Closer to the TDL, if we are doing well, maybe then yes consider rentals.    

Edited November 17, 2023 by IBatch

[Alflives]

33 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Don't think you can compare these two teams for one.   And what did MG decide to do as soon as he took over?   Offer Sundin close to the max, all that cap Nonis was waiting to clear, was offered to a once great but not so great anymore player (2 years x 10 million!).    Yikes not exactly in tune with winning a cup over a short period was it, given that team would have, well at best maybe been a little better then mediocre, and no 2011.    

 

Thankfully that never happened and things worked out.  MG also didn't re-sign Mitchell and instead spent a first for Ballard and wasted cap on Booth (both were bought out).    

 

This teams cap "window" is most obviously QHs current deal and Demko's.    Plus they have Miller playing like a champ.   You don't wait on that your make it work.     NYR in 94 had the best regular season team two years in a row - go check out what they did to create a playoff team.  It was pretty sick.  A dozen or so trades.    If you think our window is in 3-4 years then that's a one year, maybe two at most.   Absolutely they should be considering trading this years first and next years as well.   If they don't, we are likely screwed.     Will have to wait awhile before those later first rounders become anything.    Like 3-4 years!   And hope they become well a Brock Boeser.   Or a Hronek. 

 

The team can still sell the farm later and regain all those picks if things don't work out. 

Exactly! Our elite core is super good. Moving out our first rounders (late picks anyway) are how to get the Cup. Look at the Canes. They are good but won’t win the Cup because they don’t make the big moves needed. 

[IBatch]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Exactly! Our elite core is super good. Moving out our first rounders (late picks anyway) are how to get the Cup. Look at the Canes. They are good but won’t win the Cup because they don’t make the big moves needed. 

I don't have the answers, but do think that losing a couple years of firsts won't matter much if this team implodes regardless.   So might as well go for it.   Personally would wait until next year to do rentals, but am all for cost controlled players or filling one top four D now (Zadarov?).    Don't know any team that came out of nowhere and just won a cup (we'd be the first, and if we did, experts would point to the bubble as valuable experience, which of course it was).    We need playoff reps first.   If we want a cup while QHs is under contract, and Miller is producing like a superstar, we need to do get off the fence.    Our first rounders won't be on the team regardless, other than just learning the ropes.  We have what we need already for cap relief in Lekkermaki and Willander, and probably Raty as well.

 

Edit:   100% with Button, there is zero point in not using our picks to go for it while QHs is here.    He's the pro/amateur scout saying that.   Why?  Because he knows how long picks take to become impact players.  We can get all the Mottes, Bluegars, Suters, we need.  Coles and Schenn's - we can't rely on that year to year, lucky to get a Jordie Benn. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by IBatch

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I don't have the answers, but do think that losing a couple years of firsts won't matter much if this team implodes regardless.   So might as well go for it.   Personally would wait until next year to do rentals, but am all for cost controlled players or filling one top four D now (Zadarov?).    Don't know any team that came out of nowhere and just won a cup.    We need playoff reps first.   If we want a cup while QHs is under contract, and Miller is producing like a superstar, we need to do get off the fence.    Our first rounders won't be on the team regardless, other than just learning the ropes.  We have what we need already for cap relief in Lekkermaki and Willander, and probably Raty as well. 

Yup. I’d add Bains too. If it costs us a first to get another Hronek that would be ideal. 

[Ghostsof1915]

The problem with going all in, if you're holding a pair of 10's and someone at the table doesn't believe in your bluff, then you leave the table with nothing.

 

Calgary will not give you a deal in fact they will probably insist on you overpaying as your a division and long time rival.

 

Look at teams struggling in the East. And look for under the radar inexpensive defensemen on a team that has a surplus. That has lots of upside.

[Nucker67]

Calgary's not going to trade Zadorov, they need him for their playoff run. The Flames will turn their season around and Zadorov will be happy again.

 

Allvin wants Bear on the team again. I'm not sure why. 

 

Zadorov >>> Bear

 

 

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Nucker67 said:

Calgary's not going to trade Zadorov, they need him for their playoff run. The Flames will turn their season around and Zadorov will be happy again.

 

Allvin wants Bear on the team again. I'm not sure why. 

 

Zadorov >>> Bear

 

 

Yup. Way better. Big Z or Tanev fine. Just steer clear of Hanibun. 

[Ghostsof1915]

I don't see how Bear fits under the cap let alone answer any defensive woes Vancouver has.

Nice guy. But not an answer.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Ghostsof1915

[PhillipBlunt]

If the team wants to make a splash, they need to go after a legitimate top four right hander with size. Like Brett Pesce or Erik Cernak.

 

Adding Zadorov would be great, but the right side needs more focus than the left does. I'd use the trade capital to go after another righty, and hope that Zadorov is available in the offseason as a UFA. Re-sign Myers at $2M per season for 2 years

 

Hughes (5'10" 180lbs) - Hronek (6'0" 188 lbs)

Zadorov (6'6" 234 lbs) - Pesce (6'3" 210 lbs)

Soucy (6'5" 215 lbs)  - Myers (6'8" 235 lbs)

 

Now that's a defense that'll go far in the post-season. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Don't think you can compare these two teams for one.   And what did MG decide to do as soon as he took over?   Offer Sundin close to the max, all that cap Nonis was waiting to clear, was offered to a once great but not so great anymore player (2 years x 10 million!).    Yikes not exactly in tune with winning a cup over a short period was it, given that team would have, well at best maybe been a little better then mediocre, and no 2011.    

 

Thankfully that never happened and things worked out.  MG also didn't re-sign Mitchell and instead spent a first for Ballard and wasted cap on Booth (both were bought out).    

 

This teams cap "window" is most obviously QHs current deal and Demko's.    Plus they have Miller playing like a champ.   You don't wait on that your make it work.     NYR in 94 had the best regular season team two years in a row - go check out what they did to create a playoff team.  It was pretty sick.  A dozen or so trades.    If you think our window is in 3-4 years then that's a one year, maybe two at most.   Absolutely they should be considering trading this years first and next years as well.   If they don't, we are likely screwed.     Will have to wait awhile before those later first rounders become anything.    Like 3-4 years!   And hope they become well a Brock Boeser.   Or a Hronek. 

 

The team can still sell the farm later and regain all those picks if things don't work out. 

 

^ this. The Demko-Hughes, and maybe Petey (if he signs a 3 year extension) window is now. Not 1 to 3 years from now. 

 

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Adam Ruzicka

 

I don't think Cowtown adds him. I'd still do the deal. 

 

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Hughes        Hronek

Zadorov       Tanev

Cole             Myers

Soucy          Friedman

 

That is a Stanley Cup winning defence.  We are 8 deep and can sustain injuries too.  We now have completed our defence and we can go for the cup...

 

yep. I'd bump up Soucy into Cole's spot but thats real depth for the injuries you know are coming. 

 

I do think we need more size in the F group, but maybe Podz can be ready by playoff time. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Bob Long

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I don't see how Bear fits under the cap let alone answer any defensive woes Vancouver has.

Nice guy. But not an answer.

Bear likely fits in because of an injury.   That said he's this years Dermott.   And comes with his own risks (injury/surgery ... mid season form unlikely).   For sure better than AHL guys, but not really moving the playoff needle, just the regular season one.   

Edited November 17, 2023 by IBatch

[Future Considerations]

53 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

If the team wants to make a splash, they need to go after a legitimate top four right hander with size. Like Brett Pesce or Erik Cernak.

 

Adding Zadorov would be great, but the right side needs more focus than the left does. I'd use the trade capital to go after another righty, and hope that Zadorov is available in the offseason as a UFA. Re-sign Myers at $2M per season for 2 years

 

Hughes (5'10" 180lbs) - Hronek (6'0" 188 lbs)

Zadorov (6'6" 234 lbs) - Pesce (6'3" 210 lbs)

Soucy (6'5" 215 lbs)  - Myers (6'8" 235 lbs)

 

Now that's a defense that'll go far in the post-season. 

 

 

 

Start with adding Zadorov and we'd be 3/4 of the way there. 

 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 minute ago, Future Considerations said:

 

Start with adding Zadorov and we'd be 3/4 of the way there. 

 

As a UFA. 

[Future Considerations]

Just now, PhillipBlunt said:

As a UFA. 

Try and get the player now.  Maybe Calgary can loose their next 3 games.  

 

[PhillipBlunt]

4 minutes ago, Future Considerations said:

Try and get the player now.  Maybe Calgary can loose their next 3 games.  

 

Calgary will probably seek to send him out East, so if a division rival wants to trade for him, it’ll cost significantly more. 

[qwijjibo]

Calgary can get a better return shipping them out separately and not helping out a divisional rival.  

[Coconuts]

21 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Calgary will probably seek to send him out East, so if a division rival wants to trade for him, it’ll cost significantly more. 

 

Dhaliwal was saying that Calgary doesn't want to move Tanev within the division the other day, they don't want him on the west coast, they don't want him in Vancouver unless we make a stupid offer. I imagine the same could be said of Zadorov. 

 

Dhaliwal said the Canucks keep pushing Garland and Beau on Calgary but that won't cut it, a 2nd won't do it either. Calgary wants a top prospect/young player who can play in their lineup. Maybe that's Hoglander but it's hard to gauge how Calgary views him. I think there are teams out there who could offer a Hoglander level young player or better, particularly if Calgary is willing to retain cap (and they should be).

 

If Calgary plans on being competitive any time soon and leaning towards more of a competitive retool than a teardown rebuild it doesn't make sense for them to help a divisional rival. More than likely they're stuck with Huberdeau and Kadri, I don't think they're looking to tear things down. I think they'll try to move Tanev, Zadorov, Lindholm, and Hanifin and use them as a means to acquire picks, prospects, and young NHL'ers, I think they'll try and reload and come back again next season. 

 

Dhaliwal should be taken with a grain of salt, but if offers are relatively even it still makes more sense for Calgary to ship their UFA's out east. If we want players out of Calgary we'll probably have to pay more than other teams. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Coconuts

[Barn Burner]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

 

Dhaliwal was saying that Calgary doesn't want to move Tanev within the division the other day, they don't want him on the west coast, they don't want him in Vancouver unless we make a stupid offer. I imagine the same could be said of Zadorov. 

 

Dhaliwal said the Canucks keep pushing Garland and Beau on Calgary but that won't cut it, a 2nd won't do it either. Calgary wants a top prospect/young player who can play in their lineup. Maybe that's Hoglander but it's hard to gauge how Calgary views him. I think there are teams out there who could offer a Hoglander level young player or better, particularly if Calgary is willing to retain cap (and they should be).

 

If Calgary plans on being competitive any time soon and leaning towards more of a competitive retool than a teardown rebuild it doesn't make sense for them to help a divisional rival. More than likely they're stuck with Huberdeau and Kadri, I don't think they're looking to tear things down. I think they'll try to move Tanev, Zadorov, Lindholm, and Hanifin and use them as a means to acquire picks, prospects, and young NHL'ers, I think they'll try and reload and come back again next season. 

 

Dhaliwal should be taken with a grain of salt, but if offers are relatively even it still makes more sense for Calgary to ship their UFA's out east. If we want players out of Calgary we'll probably have to pay more than other teams. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"If we want players out of Calgary we'll probably have to pay more than other teams."

 

Which is why, we shouldn't even bother. 

 

Neither of those two are worth selling the farm or giving up top prospects. 

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, Barn Burner said:

"If we want players out of Calgary we'll probably have to pay more than other teams."

 

Which is why, we shouldn't even bother. 

 

Neither of those two are worth selling the farm or giving up top prospects. 

 

Agreed. I also truly believe we'd have to pay more than any other team, because I haven't heard of any other Pacific division teams being linked to Calgary, it's just been us. Only other Pacific team I could see poking around at D is Edmonton, and Calgary's even less likely to help them than they are to help us imo. 

 

If we really want to upgrade our D I'd be looking at who might be available out east. 

 

Also lost in all this seller's talk is the fact that Calgary is 4-2-1 thus far in November, they're 4 points out of a playoff spot. If they can continue to play respectable hockey I think that'll be a factor that encourages Calgary to try and reload vs rebuild. 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Coconuts