[PROPOSAL] Let's complete the defence and go for the cup

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, Future Considerations said:

 

Start with adding Zadorov and we'd be 3/4 of the way there. 

 

Only if it doesn't cost too much. He'd also have to re-sign. Can't let him walk to UFA.

[PhillipBlunt]

Trade for Cernak.

 

Hughes Hronek

Soucy Cernak

Friedman Myers

[qwijjibo]

20 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Trade for Cernak.

 

Hughes Hronek

Soucy Cernak

Friedman Myers

I doubt Tampa would have much interest in moving him.  They've kept their heads above water with Vasi out. He's skating and should be back soon.  He's  also only 26 and locked up to a reasonable contract for 8 years. 

 

 What would you offer If they WERE open to moving him? It would have to be pretty significant to get them to consider it.  Outside the core I doubt Vancouver has the pieces to entice Tampa 

[Elias Pettersson]

31 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Trade for Cernak.

 

Hughes Hronek

Soucy Cernak

Friedman Myers

 

Cernak is the dream.  He also isn't available.  Tampa has zero reason to trade him.  They traded an entire draft class to get Jeannot.  They would want a similar deal to trade Cernak.  Like our 2024 1st plus Tom Willander...

[PeteyBOI]

heard by a a fan here than donnie and Dahli (650) that calgary is going to make us pay a premium to trade with them, they dont want to trade with a western team.

[qwijjibo]

1 minute ago, Dankmemes187 said:

heard by a a fan here than donnie and Dahli (650) that calgary is going to make us pay a premium to trade with them, they dont want to trade with a western team.

Generally that's the way it goes between long time rivals. Gotta pay the rival tax 

[PeteyBOI]

9 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

To Vancouver:

Nikita Zadorov (50% retention)

Chris Tanev     (50% retention)

Adam Ruzicka

 

To Calgary:

Anthony Beauvillier

Nils Hoglander

Noah Juulsen

2024 1st round pick

 

Hughes        Hronek

Zadorov       Tanev

Cole             Myers

Soucy          Friedman

 

That is a Stanley Cup winning defence.  We are 8 deep and can sustain injuries too.  We now have completed our defence and we can go for the cup...

even if we facilitated a team to retain 50% on Beaus salary, which would be required to make this trade work cap wise... but im willing to dream. say we do over pay im guessing its two first round picks at a minimum...

 

The Calgary GM would be in the doghouse if they made your trade with vancouver, you know it, we all know it... the overpayment rumour seems very true

[Ballisticsports]

6 hours ago, Coconuts said:

 

 

Dhaliwal should be taken with a grain of salt, but if offers are relatively even it still makes more sense for Calgary to ship their UFA's out east. If we want players out of Calgary we'll probably have to pay more than other teams. 

 

 

 

Maybe they could do a 3 way trade with an eastern team, that would have Zadorov go to Vancouver?

I do trust the best decision will be made whatever happens and if that means nothing, I will know there was a reason for it

 

 

 

[AatuD2]

First of all, I like the proposal OP and it's well thought out... However I don't agree with it because of reasons already outlined above, so I will quote them below. 

 

12 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Soucy has been decent for us and doesn't deserve to be treated like that.  That's the type of move that could discourage free agents from wanting to sign here (i.e. sign someone long term and then put them in the press box for no good reason).  

 

 

Indeed, this would be a bad message sent to a guy that has played well and is injured right now. 

Also, I think that Soucy is a better dman then Zadorov. If people pull their hair out with Myers at times, they will get a similar experience with Zadorov. 

 

12 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Don't mind Ruzicka but he just brings size, not much else, so would probably be playing wing and probably on the bottom line.

 

I think that Joshua is just as good as Ruzicka, so we would be adding a 13th forward IMO. 

 

 

[4petesake]

10 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

The problem with going all in, if you're holding a pair of 10's and someone at the table doesn't believe in your bluff, then you leave the table with nothing.

 

Calgary will not give you a deal in fact they will probably insist on you overpaying as your a division and long time rival.

 

Look at teams struggling in the East. And look for under the radar inexpensive defensemen on a team that has a surplus. That has lots of upside.

 

 

[snowman955]

Not that anyone would ever want R Reeves or M Kastelic.

 

Reeves offers the presence we do not have. Not being used in Toronto.

Kastelic is a big fearless for checker. Will go to the net or threw it. And would add a great partner if Joshua is not gone.

 

I just don't have any idea who The laffs or Senasnores would ask for.

Edited November 18, 2023 by snowman955

[YourTimeisNow]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Cernak is the dream.  He also isn't available.  Tampa has zero reason to trade him.  They traded an entire draft class to get Jeannot.  They would want a similar deal to trade Cernak.  Like our 2024 1st plus Tom Willander...

Cernak would be insane. I’d do that 1st and any other prospect other than Willander to get him. They’d have to take back Myers though, which could offer them something at the deadline.

 

But yeah, this isn’t happening…

[AK-19]

16 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Not a fan of this proposal.

 

For one thing, we'd be able to sign Chris Tanev for absolutely free in this off-season (Myers + Beauvillier will come off the books). 

 

Secondly, I realize that injuries occur throughout the season but you'd basically be paying Soucy three million dollars to be a 7th defenseman?   

 

Soucy has been decent for us and doesn't deserve to be treated like that.  That's the type of move that could discourage free agents from wanting to sign here (i.e. sign someone long term and then put them in the press box for no good reason).  

 

Juulsen has about as much value as my poo with corn in it and so I don't see why Calgary takes him (other than the fact that he has low cost).   

 

I don't like the idea of trading assets to go for it this year.  With Myers and Beau off the books next year + cap going up, the Canucks might have an even better opportunity to go for it next season.   

 

I think this season is akin to our 2008-2009 season (personally, I think our record is a bit inflated at this point).  However, I can see next year and beyond being this core's equivalent to its 2010-2012 elite window.  Be patient would be my mantra for this year.  Let the Canucks make the playoffs and win a round.  Then, take the next step next year.  Be consistent and progressive in building.  

 

When Mike Gillis took over as the GM in (2008?) or whenever it was, ownership told Gillis to be aggressive in terms of building a winner.  And for the short term, the plan was brilliant.  Our 2008-2013 era was probably the greatest Canucks window of all-time, with 2010-2012 being the peak. Unfortunately, we saw what happened to this team from 2013-2023.  My point being this - do you want to build *another* team that is good for 4-5 years followed by another ten years of struggle? (give or take 1-2 outlier seasons), or, do you want to build a consistently good team for the long term? (i.e. Pittsburgh, Boston, Carolina, etc.).  

 

Let's keep Hoglander, 2024 1st, and the great Noah Juulsen (unless we are offered a 7th round pick and dog shit in exchange of course ;-)).

 

Signing Ethan Bear *for free* should give us the necessary defensive depth (a good point you raised in your post btw).  

Yeah except we got boned by OEL's buyout caphit. It's really now or never. Trade the farm while were finally firing on all cylinders this season to do as much damage as possible.

[Jeremy Hronek]

2 hours ago, AK-19 said:

Yeah except we got boned by OEL's buyout caphit. It's really now or never. Trade the farm while were finally firing on all cylinders this season to do as much damage as possible.

 

With OEL's buyout cap hit (the peak of which is still to come), would that lead a greater argument in support of prospects 'stepping up' to the NHL on ELC's or less?  I haven't done the math yet but my gut says the former.  

 

For me personally, I'm not sure if I want a repeat of the last 15 years (2008-2023). Sure, if we 'go all in' and sacrifice our farm in an effort to do so, we'll very likely have a strong 5 year window (so, following the 2008-2013 example, maybe that's two second round appearances, a cup appearance, two presidents trophies, and a 6-7th overall finish as we begin our descend).  After that?  10 years of hell (give or take 1-2 outlier seasons).   I'm not really sure if I want to risk going through that.

 

Another thing to consider - IF we decide to go "all in," Pettersson will likely need to sign a shorter term deal in order to keep his cap hit slightly lower........meaning that he can leave as a UFA right around the time we would begin our descend.  

 

Don't get me wrong - I completely understand the 'other side of the coin so to speak.'

 

-Boeser and Kuzmenko are UFA's in two years

-Demko is a UFA in 3 years

-"prime" JT Miller probably has about 3 years left.

-Hughes is a UFA in 4 years

 

I get all of that.  But I still think the smarter play is to take the long term approach since Gillis' "blowing up the farm" approach (combined with awful drafting) is the main-reason why this team fell off a cliff in 2013-2014.  I know @IBatch mentioned earlier that we could always sell players for picks/prospects once our window starts to close (i.e. rebuild our farm), but we all saw what happened in 2012/2013.  Gillis tried to sell Aqua on this idea and Aqua basically told Gillis to fuck off. So,.....maybe Aqua would be wiser this time around?   Maybe......maybe not.   

 

So, taking all of that into consideration, my rough plan would be as follows:

 

1) Sign Ethan Bear.  Instead of trading for Tanev, Andersson, etc, and giving up significant assets to do so, sign Ethan Bear for free.  Bear becomes our answer to the "hedge against injuries to the defense" problem.

 

2) This Summer:  Walk from Beauvillier and Myers.  

 

3) Sign both Pettersson and Hronek to long term 8 year deals.  None of these "rinky dinky" Michael Jackson at Neverland Ranch type deals where you sign someone to a 3-4 year deal.  Give both Pettersson and Hronek 8 year deals (or whatever is the max term).   Build a foundation.  If there is some money left over (i.e. increase in cap), then maybe you can sign Chris Tanev *for free* to a 1-2 year deal (i.e. having Tanev here before Willander is ready to take his place). 

 

4) Move one of Boeser or Kuzmenko if/when the team feels that Lekkerimaki is ready to step into the line-up.    Unlike Garland, both Boeser and Kuzmenko should have some tradable value (if Boeser continues his current level of play).   

 

5) Silovs has looked good on the farm and although nothing is guaranteed, he does look like a strong bet in terms of being able to 'take the reins' from Demko one day.  

 

6) Quinn Hughes.  As an American born player, combined with the fact that his brothers and family are in the States (brothers playing for the same team), there is a reasonably strong chance that Hughes leaves us when he becomes a UFA.  That's life.  It happens.  Still - if/when that time comes, the Canucks should be able to attract good UFA's (or one good UFA) to replace Quinn Hughes if they are able to establish a consistent winning culture here with good core pieces to surround themselves with (i.e. Pettersson, Hronek, Willander, etc.).    And who knows - the flip side of this is that we are successful in signing Hughes LONG TERM just as we did with JT Miller.  

 

Even with the above plan, the Canucks should have a couple of very solid chances of making a cup run..........without blowing up the farm.  

 

Now..........having said ALL that, I do believe that the Canucks are going to be very aggressive this season and next in terms of going for the cup.  It fits Aqua's "modus operandi," and I think both Rutherford and Alvin will want to create legacies for themselves (or in JR's case, further his legacy).

Edited November 18, 2023 by Jeremy Hronek

[-dlc-]

 

[Jeremy Hronek]

On 11/17/2023 at 10:20 PM, IBatch said:

Don't think you can compare these two teams for one.   And what did MG decide to do as soon as he took over?   Offer Sundin close to the max, all that cap Nonis was waiting to clear, was offered to a once great but not so great anymore player (2 years x 10 million!).    Yikes not exactly in tune with winning a cup over a short period was it, given that team would have, well at best maybe been a little better then mediocre, and no 2011.    

 

Thankfully that never happened and things worked out.  MG also didn't re-sign Mitchell and instead spent a first for Ballard and wasted cap on Booth (both were bought out).    

 

This teams cap "window" is most obviously QHs current deal and Demko's.    Plus they have Miller playing like a champ.   You don't wait on that your make it work.     NYR in 94 had the best regular season team two years in a row - go check out what they did to create a playoff team.  It was pretty sick.  A dozen or so trades.    If you think our window is in 3-4 years then that's a one year, maybe two at most.   Absolutely they should be considering trading this years first and next years as well.   If they don't, we are likely screwed.     Will have to wait awhile before those later first rounders become anything.    Like 3-4 years!   And hope they become well a Brock Boeser.   Or a Hronek. 

 

The team can still sell the farm later and regain all those picks if things don't work out. 

 

Hey IBatch,

 

Good post.  

 

Here's my thought.  

 

I'm NOT interested in trading assets (with a plural) to cater to our 3-4 year window as you put it.  

 

Why?  Because - I believe there are strength in numbers.  The more picks you have, the more likely it is that you hit find a gem in the haystack (i.e. like Tampa did with Braden Point). Now, even if said picks don't become elite players, I think there's something to be said about guys that can make your bottom 6/3rd pairing and significantly exceed their values.  Next season for instance - would it be farfetched to believe that Raty, Podkolzin, and Silovs could step into our line next season on ELC's?  What if Raty, Podkolzin, and Silovs all successfully replaced Bluegar, Beauviller, and DeSmith?  What about on defense?  Even if on a 3rd pairing, what if one of Hirose or McWard made the #6 spot?  Now all of a sudden, you're quietly saving a ton of money on these fronts which could allow the Canucks to invest heavier on top end talent.  

 

Now, having said ALL that, while I'm not interested in trading AssetS (with a plural), I would be interested in trading our most prized asset (asset as in ONE), Willander, with Conor Garland, in a "hockey deal," if it landed us a "win now" #2A/#3 calibre RD like Rasmus Andersson (or someone similar to that).   

 

1. It helps the Canucks go for the cup within the 3-4 year window that you describe

2. With Garland off the books, combined with Myers and Beauviller in the Summer, it would give the Canucks more cap options in terms of signing both Pettersson and Hronek to 7-8 year deals at higher cap hits (as opposed to the 3-4 years that has been rumoured.....since it would be a lower cap hit).

3. The Canucks wouldn't have to sacrifice their 2024 1st and 2025 1st in order to make a significant push.  Trade Willander - that's it.  So while the Canucks would be 'making a push for the cup' over these next 3-4 years', you can continue filling the pipeline with your 2024 1st, 2025 1st, and so forth, while continuing to groom and nurture guys like Hoglander, Podkolzin, Raty, Lekkerimaki (Boeser/Kuzmenko replacement), Silovs (DeSmith....and possibly Demko replacement one day), Hirose, Hunter B, and McWard.  

[Jeremy Hronek]

@IBatch,

 

Hey,

 

I think a few days back, I seem to recall you mentioning the Chicago Blackhawks as an example somewhere (with regards to how they managed their cap from 2008-2015).  I can't find that post but I think you mentioned something along the lines of Chicago won all of those cups because their top players were on cap friendly bridge deals. The Kings also followed this model when they won their two cups, and the Penguins indirectly fell into this model once the salary cap started to rise (which, in effect, brought down Crosby, Malkin and Letang's overall CF% from "premium contracts" into steals).   You are absolutely correct by the way - those cost-controlled cap hits were a big reason why Chicago, LA, and Pittsburgh enjoyed those multiple cup wins.  

 

Unfortunately for the Canucks, that window has already passed.  Benning already sold Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko on the idea of "taking one for the team" so that they could build a winner.  That's why Boeser's initial RFA deal was 5.8 million, while Petey's was 7.3 (and Hughes = 7.8, Demko = 5), and so on. Even Bo Horvat's initial deal was only 5.5 million, while JT Miller was specifically brought in since he had a sweetheart cap.  In 2019, Benning had anticipated that we could sign our core players to sweet heart deals while simultaneously being able to get rid of our "expensive veteran leadership" contracts when our young core were ready to be the leaders.  For various reasons, this plan didn't work out as planned (I won't get into a lengthy discussion about this).

 

My point remains however - Pettersson already "took one for the team," with his current 7.3 million deal.  Unfortunately, this time around, we will have to pay the man and that's fine.  Last decade, it was impossible for teams to win with 10 million dollar cap hit players on their team but more and more teams are being forced to use this model (i.e. far less 'bridge' deals to superstar players after ELC's).  Those 2010-2015 Chicago and LA models are being phased out now as top players everywhere will get paid sooner than later.

[PunjabiCanucks23]

if we are paying that much I want Lindholm, Elias back- conditional 1st round that he resigns assuming Beauvillier and Garland's contracts are gone.

 

 

[The Lock]

I don't see Calgary doing this deal. The deals they've historically made with us have been much smaller. Think about the deal to get Baertschi or Granlund. I have a hard time seeing them do a larger deal than that with them being an immediate rival in the same division.

Edited November 22, 2023 by The Lock

[DownUndaCanuck]

We should be in desperation mode now, we're dropping points at a fast rate. Petey not being on form doesn't help but it starts with defence and having two AHLers out there every night plus Myers is killing us. We shore that up and the offence will come. 

 

An easy answer is Bear but he has to be cheap, and is only considered an option over our AHLers, so I'm not sure how much better he really is. I wouldn't give him anything over 1M, otherwise we might as well just play Juulsen or heck, Wolanin. 

 

Another option is to split Hughes and Hronek. Get any AHLer to play with Hughes (Johansson, Juulsen, McWard, Woo...), pair Cole and Hronek as a shutdown 2nd pairing and then play some kid (Hirose, even Wolanin) with Myers. Spread the wealth. Our bottom-4 defence is getting killed right now and this might do the job to plug some holes on defence and spread the wealth.

 

The big answer is to make a play for any Calgary defenceman. They probably aren't ready to rebuild yet so will want a young player who can play right now. Surely Beauvillier/Garland plus a pick or prospect is enough for a defenceman who has an expiring contract and wants out. I didn't want Tanev because of his age but right now you take anyone to shore up the D. Zadorov is obviously first choice because of his physicality, age and decent cap hit. We can wait until the off-season but that'll waste this good start and good season we're having, whereas if we make a play for him now we have a chance to steady the ship a bit and as long as it doesn't hurt us too much in the future, I'd do it. Beauvillier + one of our defensive prospects (eg. recent draft picks or Woo, Johansson) for Zadorov should do the job, or give them a mid pick if they want.